On the right track?

[Tony302600]

Alright, i know i post a lot needing help, but we rarely get 7.3's in and i try my hardest to get on top of these things.

 

99 F-550, 157,000 on the ticker. came in for no start cold, has to be plugged in and even needs starter fluid sometimes.

did all the normal checks, glow plug relay is bad, 7 outta the 8 glowplugs are bad. #4, #7 injectors are misfiring when hot. Replaced glow plug relay, 8 glow plugs, 2 injectors and they wanted the three that havent been changed yet to be resealed.

 

Started right up, ran it for about an hour. Go to rev it up and above 1500rpm at full throttle it stumbles, smokes, runs rough.

Oil was changed. Smokes from under the hood when u mash it. If u slightly hit the throttle below 60% load it revs up ok, no smoke, but once you go to w.o.t. and wastegate goes to 90+% it smokes out the exhaust, runs like crap, misfires. The EBP rod doesnt move at all when i rev it up and i get 2psi of mpg tops. IPR at idle is 7% which kinda concerns me, but icp pressure and voltages are all good.

 

driving it, runs beautiful til u mash the throttle and get it above 1500rpm, then the smoke comes out and runs like crap.

 

Hotline told me to disconnect the ebp rod and find a way to hold the wastegate rod open and retest. It doesnt have a cat on it.

 

Am i on the right track thinking i have a turbo/pedestal problem, I need some advice from all you guys.

[mchan68]

'99-2000 model year is the year for pedestal failures if I remember correctly. I have seen one once where an internal seal inside the turbo itself let go, mind you that was only once, if that helps. Was the oil level correct? How about fuel quality? I haven't wrenched on too many 7.3s myself lately. Hmmm does that mean they're outlasting the 6.0s by any chance?

[Jim Warman]

OK... we know the EBP rod doesn't move... what position doesn't it move from is the question.... Default is open (rod extended).

 

What can you get for boost when driving? Not sure where you are getting 2PSI MGP from....

 

Where does the smoke from under the hood come from?

 

Without codes, we get into symptom driven diagnosis... we need to take all the data we can get and assess it carefully.... some data we will discard... some data we will concentrate on and some data needs to be remembered as being "possibly" relevant.... like an "acquired taste" - sometimes it comes easy and sometimes hard....

 

Sometimes, what we need to do is fire up a batch of popcorn (you do have a microwave in the lunchroom, yes?) and watch "movies". And I think a lot of guys overlook this... Forget "live data", shit happens too fast for us to drink it all in.... Take movies.... lots and lots of movies. Sometimes you are looking for "events" - sometimes you are looking for "trends". View everything with an open mind...

 

Worst comes to worst, post your movies here.... that way we all can learn.

 

Good judgement comes from experience..... unfortunately, experience comes from bad judgement....

[Bruce Amacker]

Hotline told me to disconnect the ebp rod and find a way to hold the wastegate rod open and retest. It doesn't have a cat on it.

 

I agree, to rule out the possibility of an EBP problem (which I don't think you have).

Originally Posted By: Tony302600

driving it, runs beautiful til u mash the throttle and get it above 1500rpm, then the smoke comes out and runs like crap.

 

Have you checked fuel pressure under load? This sounds like a classic example of fuel starvation. Gen2's have a common problem with plugging the screens in the DTRM inside the tank pickup assy which gives this complaint. Bad fuel also gives this complaint, we put a bunch of Styanadyne Performance Formula in the FF and drive it to see if it's bad fuel.

 

Sidebar: To check fuel pressure on a Gen2, we use a 1/8" NPT 45 degree brass street elbow and a Napa PN 90-290 Schrader screwed into the right head. It gives a permanent way to check FP in the future. Total cost, $4, put it on the bill.

 

Good Luck!

[DwayneGorniak]

You can also unhook the Ebp rod and go for a road test. Just wire the valve open.

 

Oh and Jim, forget about the microwaveable popcorn. That shit will kill you. It's all over the news right now. There is a chemical in it that causes lung cancer when you breeth it in. They have recalled a bunch of product. And they are finding that lung cancer has been showing up in popcorn factory employees since 1985. Maybe that's why Orville Redenbacher died, hugh? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif

 

Gee, do you think mother nature is trying to tell us something? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif

 

Sorry for the sidetrack, but Jim got me goin.

[Jim Warman]

Dwayne.... as a boy, I went to school on an army base in BCs lower mainland.... The only insulation in the place was asbestos... on the steam pipes, in the walls... asbestos....

 

Tobacco became a habit in my early teens...

 

Recreational pharmacology occupied my late teens....

 

"Accepted industry practice" was to open the bay doors and blow the dust out of brake assemblies....

 

Since the late 60s, I have been almost bathing in, breathing in and, occasionally, swallowing petrochemicals....

 

Sometimes, I'll dab a "drip" with my finger and taste it... if it's sweet, it must be antifreeze....

 

I routinely cut myself in the line of duty (some of the things I do or the way I do them - I just know I am going to leak) or do other things that some might find "surprising"....

 

I have frozen, I have baked and I have burned myself... all with the good knowledge that these are things I can expect from my actions....

 

God only knows what my liver is doing right now....

 

I can assure you that it is going to take more than a piece of popcorn to gack...... GACK..... GAAAAaaaaaAAAAAaaaa.......

[DwayneGorniak]

I often wonder if we are the Homer Simpson's of the world. We could probably walk into a radioactive sensitive area and set off bells and alarms and have people running up to us in full body armour suits so that we don't contaminate them and have them put us in isolation chambers as experimental study specimens.

[Tony302600]

Post has been hi-jacked lol.

 

The pedestal was rebuilt for a oil leak 20,000 miles ago, max boost is 2-3 psi.

Smoke comes from under the hood, and billows out the exhaust, its grey, slight tint of blue.

The ebp rod doesnt move from KOEO, to KOER, to w.o.t.

Also, the intake tubes, and compressor side of turbe are completely encased in oil, turbine side is ok.

Im starting to think that i have more then just one problem. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

[Bruce Amacker]

Post has been hi-jacked lol.

No Shit!

Originally Posted By: Tony302600

The pedestal was rebuilt for a oil leak 20,000 miles ago, max boost is 2-3 psi.

Smoke comes from under the hood, and billows out the exhaust, its grey, slight tint of blue.

 

Where's the exhaust leak? Maybe plug the tailpipe with a rag to see for a quick test?

Originally Posted By: Tony302600

The ebp rod doesnt move from KOEO, to KOER, to w.o.t.

As long as it's stuck OPEN, I'm not concerned about this.

Originally Posted By: Tony302600

Also, the intake tubes, and compressor side of turbo are completely encased in oil, turbine side is ok.

 

Quick test: Pull the oil cap and hold the AP WOT. You know what to look for. Real test: crankcase pressure test with a water manometer (not the big fancy gauge that has been dropped a hundred times). You can make a water manometer quicker than you can walk over to the parts cabinet and get the fancy gauge set (that's probably not accurate).

 

How does the clean side compressor wheel look? Is there abrasion damage there? Does it have the infamous "crap" air filter housing on it (with "Intercooler" written on top)? Were there any empty ether cans in the cab? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

Good Luck!

[Tony302600]

yes to the empty cans in the cab, did i mention IPR was only at 7% at hot idle and never went over 31%. But icp voltages and readings are ok.

 

Crankcase pressure test is useless because our gauge is busted, but there isnt much smoke coming out of the oil fill tube.

 

Its smoking a lot outta the exhaust, and through the y-pipe.

 

fuel pressure is at 60 drops to 55 at attempt of w.o.t.

 

 

started it up this morning. started right away but 6,8 are dropping out, probably still have air in the system? idles good hot.

 

throughout the span of 20,000miiles its had 1,2,and 5 injectors replaced, i replaced 4 and 7, injector self test sounds good on the replaced ones, and the factory ones are quieter then the replaced ones.

[GregH]

Ummm - what about the air filter? Lots of oil in the turbo, loss of power at higher RPM, and low boost pressure says intake restriction to me.

 

Has it got one of those foam pieces on the bottom of air filter element? If so, they will stop slam up and never show it. The restriction gauge would be pegged out if it still works...

 

Long shot, but I've been nailed by that before...

[Tony302600]

So i did all the checks that you guys suggested and the conclusion is either aerated oil (they said they just changed it but it looks like shit ), sticking IPR, or base engine. Knowing my luck it will be base engine.

[Keith Browning]

Quote:

throughout the span of 20,000miiles its had 1,2,and 5 injectors replaced, i replaced 4 and 7, injector self test sounds good on the replaced ones, and the factory ones are quieter then the replaced ones.

This is sounding like a problem child that has not been keenly maintained. I have had a few trucks show up this year that had leaking y-pipes and exhaust noises that the customers apparently got used to. After repairing the exhaust leaks they are impressed by the newly found power. Its a common problem in my area along with clogged filters (air and fuel) and blown turbos. The last one I touched was so far gone it had oil dripping out of the tailpipe. I am looking forward to your diagnosis.

[Tony302600]

The thing that bugged me was that hotline said it was getting too much fuel. They said either the cylinders were not getting hot enough ( base engine ) oil is aerated ( lack of maintainence ) or the IPR is sticking. Im just scared as to how for this company want to go into this truck, and im scared as to how far i want to go into this. I keep looking at the IPR at WOT not going over 30%.

 

One engineer said that the HPP was the cause because ipr was at 7%, the 2nd one was like, "what the hell is he talking bout, IPR would ramp up if the pump was bad"

[DwayneGorniak]

What's your icp reading after three minutes of WOT?

[Bruce Amacker]

The thing that bugged me was that hotline said it was getting too much fuel. They said either the cylinders were not getting hot enough ( base engine ) oil is aerated ( lack of maintenance ) or the IPR is sticking. I'm just scared as to how for this company want to go into this truck, and I'm scared as to how far i want to go into this. I keep looking at the IPR at WOT not going over 30%.

 

One engineer said that the HPP was the cause because ipr was at 7%, the 2nd one was like, "what the hell is he talking bout, IPR would ramp up if the pump was bad"

You definitely have a problem child here, and it's very possible you have more than one problem, which is why we're all confused. I suggest covering the basics once again to CYA in case it's not a bad motor.

 

1. Check for a biased ICP and MAP sensors. Put a mechanical HP gauge in one of the cylinder head HP ports (the thread is 1/2" fine, straight thread with an o-ring) and make sure the ICP reading in data is within 10% of the gauge at all times. Your IPR at 7% idle is an odd one.

 

2. Take a push-pull (bisexual) MityVac and apply 5-15PSI to the MAP KOEO while watching scan data, once again, it should read dead on. I've been burned badly by biased sensors in the past.

 

3. Did you put some fuel additive in it? Stanadyne Performance Formula is my favorite, but Ford has a similar additive called PM-17-A, or F8AZ-9C077-AA. Suck the fuel out of the fuel filter, fill the housing with additive, and take it for a drive. I've been burned by bad fuel before that looked and smelled fine, but the truck would misfire badly at higher RPM with it. If it runs better with the additive, it's either bad fuel or bad injectors.

 

4. I agree that the 7% IPR should not indicate a bad pump, but there's a quick test you can do to check the HP system. Ground the IPR return wire with the engine idling, it should reach 3800+psi.

 

5. I agree that an oil change is needed on this truck, but I'm not sure I agree on oil aeration. The ones I've had with aeration ran OK cold, and the ICP would cycle DRAMATICALLY up and down as they warmed up. ICP would vary between 500-2000psi, and occasionally hit 350, where the engine would die. If you feel it is aeration after the oil change, take a sample of oil from the reservoir with a hose at WOT into a plastic pop bottle. It will look like chocolate milk if it's aerated, and root beer if it's not. There's a TSB on this test, and it works.

 

6. If all of this fails and the cust still wants answers, pull one valve cover and do a compression test. A good engine is 425-450, anything under 400 is suspect, and 350 is a problem. 99's were REALLY bad at dusting engines because of the air filters. Did you say yours did, or did not have the early air cleaner with "Intercooler" written on it? (production before 12-98)

 

What's MFDES at a hot idle? With your IPR whacked out, I'm afraid to put a lot of weight on the MFDES, but it should read between 8-10, or maybe 6-12 on the outside limits. I'll bet it's in the teens, calling for more fuel.

 

I hate to load you up with tests like this, but you could probably knock them out in 2 hours.

 

Let us know how you make out, and

 

Good Luck!

[Tony302600]

Here we go, through a IPR in it, now it revs up to 2500, stumbles, then goes to 3400, has little smoke coming out of the exhaust now. at 3400 rpm for 1 min icp was at 2000psi.

 

heres the codes i aquired from 1 test drive. p0198,P0237, P0472, P0475, P0500, P0640, P0720, P1119, P1247, P1280, P1670, P1690.

 

While on the test drive, the EBP rod fell off of the wastegate, it makes a max of 5psi at w.o.t. Yay, which one do i go after. I am going to attempt to secure the ebp rod and then retest drive.

[ktmlew]

Here we go, through a IPR in it, now it revs up to 2500, stumbles, then goes to 3400, has little smoke coming out of the exhaust now. at 3400 rpm for 1 min icp was at 2000psi.

 

heres the codes i aquired from 1 test drive. p0198,P0237, P0472, P0475, P0500, P0640, P0720, P1119, P1247, P1280, P1670, P1690.

 

While on the test drive, the EBP rod fell off of the wastegate, it makes a max of 5psi at w.o.t. Yay, which one do i go after. I am going to attempt to secure the ebp rod and then retest drive.

First off I would inspect the wiring harness closly in the area of the drivers side engine lift bracket & shock mount for chafing. The P0640 is for the Intake Air Heater which is supposed to he reduce cold smoking. Pull it out and see if it's burnt...I like fixing the "easy" stuff first.

 

P0198-System Operation from AllData...

 

Signal Functions

The Engine Oil Temperature (EOT) sensor is a thermistor type sensor that has a variable resistance that changes when exposed to different temperatures. When interfaced with the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) , it produces a 0 to 5 volt analog signal that will deduce temperature.

 

Cranking Fuel Quantity/Timing Control - The EOT sensor signal is used to determine the timing and quantity of fuel required to optimize starting over all temperature conditions.

 

Idle Speed - At oil temperatures below 70°C (158°F) low idle is incrementally increased to a maximum of 950 rpm .

 

Temperature Compensation - Fuel quantity and timing is controlled throughout the total operating range to ensure adequate torque and power is available.

 

Glow Plug Control - The glow plug relay and lamp ON time are controlled by engine oil temperature.

 

Detection/Management

An EOT sensor signal that is detected out of range (high or low) by the PCM will cause the PCM to ignore the EOT sensor signal and assume an engine oil temperature of -34°C (-29 °F) for starting and a temperature of 100°C (212°F) for engine-running conditions. The CHECK ENGINE light will also be illuminated as long as the condition exists.

 

NOTE: After removing connectors, always check for damaged pins, corrosion, loose terminals, etc.

 

Connector Checks To Ground (B-) (Check With Sensor Connector Disconnected And Ignition Key Off, All Accessories Off)

 

CONNECTOR CHECKS TO GROUND (B-) (CHECK WITH SENSOR CONNECTOR DISCONNECTED AND IGNITION KEY OFF, ALL ACCESSORIES OFF)

 

DTC Descriptions

Circuit Faults:

P0197 = EOT sensor circuit low input

P0198 = EOT sensor circuit high input

 

System Faults

P0196 (49 State except Econoline) = Engine oil temperature less than 74°C (165°F) or above 116°C (240°F) during KOER Cylinder Contribution Self Test (self test access denied).

P1184 (California and all Econoline) = Engine oil temperature less than 74°C(165°F) or above 116°C (240°F) during KOER Cylinder Contribution Self Test (self test access denied).

_____________________________________________________________

 

P1119-Just run thru the PP test. Actually I would quickly look at all the PP test for the codes recieved to see if anything jumps out at you?

 

This is starting to sound like one that DOES have multiple failures? I would be suspicious of a biased ICP and an IDM that has gone brain dead...then you also have the possible damage from using the "juice cans"...plus possible wiring harness dama ge from chafing.

[ktmlew]

Any more news on this one. Maybe the IPR fixed it but it just still had air in the HP sysytem?

[Tony302600]

Ok....IPR fixed the not going over 2500rpm and stumbling. The EBP rod kept popping off causing the excessive grey smoke because when i puta new clip on to secure it, the smoke went away, and wala had 10psi of boost, not much but i know. The rest of the stuff they said not to worry bout. #8 is weak, low on compression test. Didnt want any diag on the codes, but it starts right up in the morning. Y-pipe is leaking like crazy. Basically it needs amotor, they said it runs fine enough for them.

 

Today i saw them driving it, F-550 we weighed it at 17,000#'s (had to see if we need bigger 2 post racks when truck shop was being built) towing a utility trailer with a bobcat on the back down the highway. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boink3.gif

 

They are usually good with maintaining them, but this one fell through the cracks i guess lol

[Brad Clayton]

Quote:

They are usually good with maintaining them, but this one fell through the cracks i guess lol

They must a been usin the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" theory. The problem with that is some people don't know when it's broke. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif