A question about head-studs...

[Alex Bruene]

It seems to be quite popular lately that people on other forums are talking about having dealers install head-studs when they are having a warranty head-gasket replacement. I wonder what Ford's policy is on that? I wonder what would happen if there were to be a repeat failure, end up at a different dealership, and Ford being contacted about it? Would they still pick up the warranty, knowing it was a "non-Ford" part that failed?

[DwayneGorniak]

We have started installing ARP head studs at our dealership only for very good customers and ones that are close to being off of warranty or obviously retail customers. Most customers are very pleased to hear that we can give them an improvement on their cylender head repair. We just don't want to give the assholes that option. Example of why: You tell a customer who is a total asshole that you can improve the quality of a head gasket repair by installing ARP studs. The next thing you know, they phone ford and bitch and whine and cry for them to pay for the studs. Then you have Ford breathing down your neck for installing aftermarket parts. So we tread very carefully with this type of advise given to customers.

 

And as for the Quality, I strongly recomend putting studs in. We have never had one come back. Anything is better than those cheap rubbery Mexican bolts they put in at the factory.

[Alex Bruene]

I imagine they are much better, but I'm concerned about what I/we could possibly be getting ourselves into by installing aftermarket parts on Ford's dime.

[DwayneGorniak]

You're not thinking that Ford pays for the studs are you? We have the customers pay for the studs while Ford pays for their faulty product repair. But like I said, this is still an area where we have to tread carefully. A year ago, we were totally against this repair, but we had to take a look at it from the customers view where they are trying to improve the product they are driving. However, we do not do any other aftermarket modifications. This is the one and only that we will accept.

[Steve Mutter]

Dwayne do you have tp pull the engine or lift the cab to put the head studs in?

[DwayneGorniak]

I have been lifting the cabs since January of 2003 and I would never go back to busting my cohoney's being bent over like a monke f#*king a football and get getting my valuables caught on that damn hoodlatch ever again. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif Untill you try it, you will never know how much nicer the job is this way. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif

[Brad Clayton]

ditto. been pulling cabs since '97.

[Alex Bruene]

You're not thinking that Ford pays for the studs are you? We have the customers pay for the studs while Ford pays for their faulty product repair. But like I said, this is still an area where we have to tread carefully. A year ago, we were totally against this repair, but we had to take a look at it from the customers view where they are trying to improve the product they are driving. However, we do not do any other aftermarket modifications. This is the one and only that we will accept.

I know that the customer will pay for the studs. My issue is with not installing the actual Ford part. That's all. I said "no"... I don't want to take any chances.

[WGLR13MWZ]

I have a question. In order for the entire claim to get paid, you must bill out the Ford part number for head bolts on the RO. Is that not fudging the RO and just asking for trouble since you didn't use them? Besides being unethical.

 

It may seem small, but if Ford wants to rock your dealers world, they will not only charge you back for that repair order but all ROs of the like.

 

Example, your dealer doesn't use Motorcraft oil in bulk, but you carry it in bottle quantities.....You bill out 120 gallons of oil in 4 months, but only bought 100 gallons in that period....They will audit you and if they find you guilty, charge your dealer back for all the labor and parts for every warranty RO you billed oil on. They have the right and I have seen the do it a couple of times in the past along with one right now with a dealer across town.

[DwayneGorniak]

Bolts come in the box with the heads. And like I said, You have to tread carefully with this type of repair. We do this only on trucks that are about to come off of warranty and/or retail repairs. We are simply trying to make these things hold together longer once they are off of warranty. We are trying to improve the product for our customers. We do not take the chance on lower mileage trucks either, for all the same reasons that are being posted here.

[Keith Browning]

It seems as though everything I have read about head studs is that they solve the problem and it is extremely rare for the head gaskets to fail again. I know that I have not seen any truck get a second repair using OEM parts but I have heard of it. It is a shame that the only thing we have to fear is the red tape we could find ourselves wrapped in. Kind of ironic eh?

[DwayneGorniak]

It seems as though everything I have read about head studs is that they solve the problem and it is extremely rare for the head gaskets to fail again. I know that I have not seen any truck get a second repair using OEM parts but I have heard of it. It is a shame that the only thing we have to fear is the red tape we could find ourselves wrapped in. Kind of ironic eh?

Exactly Keith. Years ago, I used to get a good feeling when I was done repairing a vehicle because I felt that I was improving that product for the customer. That feeling is now gone, because I have seen some repeat head gasket failures after they get some major mileage on them. Example: do gaskets at 35,000km's and then again at 100,000km's. The biggest problem units I have are the ones that are hauling extreme loads.

 

If we are going to let the red tape determine whether or not we are going to "repair" the product or just replace faulty parts with "crappy" parts, we are are not really repairing the root cause of the concern. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

[Jim Warman]

Not to try and "re-engineer" anything... I don't think it is crappy parts.... The engineers have tried putting a size ten foot in a pair of size 6 boots....

 

Ten head bolts ain't near enough for something like this... Hell, we had problems with the old Chev 396 and it had FIVE head bolts per cylinder (two sharing)... Look how many head bolts the 7.3 had....

 

Used to be that most everything was "overbuilt"... now the engineers and bean counters have us walking a tightrope....

 

And I don't see things getting any better....

[DwayneGorniak]

Partly true Jim. But the engineers are somehow thinking rubber head bolts are better than North American steel. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif And as far as I am concerned, these head bolts are crappy parts. For as long as I can remember, we have had nothing but problems with torque to yield head bolts. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif And from what I am seeing North American quality studs are holding up alot better. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif

 

Somehow, I just don't believe in 400lbs compression, 27-29psi boost and a shit load of combustion chamber temperatures with rubber head bolts. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif

 

However I do agree with the fact that they really screwed up with only ten head bolts versus eighteen. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif

 

PS. have you noticed that I am really starting to like these little smiley guys?

[Keith Browning]

However I do agree with the fact that they really screwed up with only ten head bolts versus eighteen.

 

Okay, but WHERE on that cylinder head do you see room for 7 or 8 more head bolts? With 16 valves, 4 push rods, 4 injectors, 4 glow plugs, mounts for the high pressure rail and the rockers to boot (despite sharing the head bolt as a mount). Perhaps the best option with the design would have been a little beefier head with head studs? Or are the studs alone enough?

[DwayneGorniak]

That's just where the whole screw up is. The whole design of the cylinder head. Not to mention the fact that this engine wasn't really intended to push as much horsepower as it does in the superduty. 90 less horsepower in the econoline and the 650-750- series. And they don't seem to stretch the bolts like the superduty does. Which brings me back to the quality of these rubber head bolts verses studs.

[Scott B]

Well put.It IS The programming and Ratings of the Ford application on The 365 that causes these failures.More agressive timing and Fueling tables = Much Higher Cyl pressures.Out of 100 or so VT-365 powerd Internationals sold out of our dealership.Only 1 has had Headgasket issues that I know of and that was caused by severly overheating the thing from loosing the coolant from a blown hose.While this engine shares most all other issues with its Ford cousin.Headgasket issues is definately not one of them.

[Tony302600]

we get this lifted, modded F-350, blown head gaskets. The owner even leaves the instructions on "turning ure truck to stock" sitting on the center console clipboard. Finally we gave up and said screw it we'll do them under warranty. Comes in and gives ARP head studs to the service writer and asks if we can put them on. i'll see how that goes

 

i too second that the 6.0 is too overpowered. and why people do headgaskets for degas bottle overflow on e-vans is beyond me. FFFFFFFFFFFFF- that.

[Scott B]

we get this lifted, modded F-350, blown head gaskets. The owner even leaves the instructions on "turning ure truck to stock" sitting on the center console clipboard. Finally we gave up and said screw it we'll do them under warranty. Comes in and gives ARP head studs to the service writer and asks if we can put them on. i'll see how that goes

 

i too second that the 6.0 is too overpowered. and why people do headgaskets for degas bottle overflow on e-vans is beyond me. FFFFFFFFFFFFF- that.

Over powerd for its design.Yup there is no doubt there.It is on the edge combustion pressure wise But this Engines bottom end is plenty stout and will handle 325 HP with NO worries.Tone down the progrmming a Bit to 290 or 300 I am willing to Bet these issues with gasket breaching would drop drastically.International is still putting the VT-365 in the MXT and CXT suprisingly they have it jacked up to 300HP and 500 on the Torque.Something tells me they damn well know what these heads will take before reliability becomes a issue.The numbers I just posted are probably it.We got one of these CXT'S in the other day.I work steady Nights and found it in the detail bay at lunch with the Keys in it LOL...While it doesnt have quite the Balls of a 6.0 its damn quick for a 9500 lb beast I could only go up the road and back quick like so not to get caught driving it Heh, Heh.The Interior is Pimped to the Hilt. DVD Flipdown,GPS, all the goods.So far I have only seen 2 6.4 Cab and chassis come through.No twins on the International application.Single VGT Turbo