2007 f-series 6.0 no start hot after shutdown

[kevin phillips]

Have a 07 f-450 ambulance that starts fine cold but when hot it dosen't build enough icp pressure only building 315 psi ipr ramps up to 85% but still a no start till it cools i replaced the stc fitting kit and o-rings under pump but diddn't help.I tried cranking the engine with the h-p pump cover removed and the v-covers off to see if i could locate a leak diddn't help me find it.i removed both oil rails and cannot see any problems visible but the engine was cold by the time i got it apart.i seen a message on here a while back about a o-ring or seal on the rail leaking but i can't remember what it was.any ideas or help figuring this beast out thanks,kevin

[Alex Bruene]

Check the o-rings on the front "dummy" plugs on the oil rails.

[Mekanik]

Are you sure you have good base oil pressure when cranking?

[Tony302600]

Other diesel tech had the exact problem on another truck, found right oil rail dummy plug bottom o-ring torn sticking out halfway. couldnt see it until u pulled it out.

[kevin phillips]

are the o-rings your talking about at the end of the rails with 2 on each side of the wavy new style type oil rail or where the standpipe would be if it was on the other side of the engine or the nipples where the injectors connect to the rail i tried shop air on the system but without the oil it leaked air all over and i couldn't tell but will try to tear it back down tommorow thanks i've never seen one like this before really a headache

[kevin phillips]

i removed the oil filter and cranked the engine and the filter housing filled during no start pretty quickly but i haven't had a guage on it

[mchan68]

The last couple I had with ICP pressures in the 200 to 300 range were the lower o-rings torn on the dummy rail plugs. That would be the big hex plug that goes into the rail where the standpipe would go, if it were installed on the other side.

[OHNO60]

HAD ONE WITH A HP PUMP SHAFT LEAKING WHEN HOT ONLY.WHEN COOLED SEALED ENOUGH TO START AND RUN WITH A SLIGHT LOWW OF POWER. A LITTLE TOUGH TO FIND BUT WAS HP PUMP. DID YOU TRY AIR TEST FOR 30MIN- 1 HOUR COMPARISON. A SURE BET

[kevin phillips]

when i air tested the vehicle it seemed to have air leaks all over the engine after a few min.i was told the oil made the o-rings seal and not to air test by ford.they said to power up the ipr valve,remove ficm,and look for oil leaks but when i air tested it did seem louder on the passenger side so i'm going to pull that rail and inspect the dummy plug that side first thanks for the info guys,it really helps

[Bruce Amacker]

When I air tested the vehicle it seemed to have air leaks all over the engine after a few min. I was told the oil made the o-rings seal and not to air test by Ford.

HUH? Who the Hell told you this?

 

I think an extended air check is also in order, and I'd be using a stethoscope to check every fitting while they were aired up. Plugging in the block heater might also help. If you have leaks "all over the engine" I'd want to diag them properly first, but it sounds like you'll be doing a lot of resealing.....

[OHNO60]

i had quite a few that it took at least 15-30 minutes of air test till the oil was purged from the leak. i found the hp pump leak sounded louder on the passenger side also. one things for sure the tests worked everytime for me. i wouldn't ask that guy who told you that for any help any more,hahaha he seems like service manager material thats for sure!

[kevin phillips]

ford had said to unplug ficm and remove both v-covers and the h-p oil cover then full feild the ipr and crank the engine over and look for oil leaks going on the fact that the oil pump built 1400 psi of pressure while cranking where the shop air may only be 150 or so.since my problem occured hot they may have thought it might take more pressure to leak.i don't know i'm just learning these things but seems there are alot of crazy problems going on. but anyway several of the guys mentioned the dummy plug in the oil rail and the pass side o-ring was almost half gone.replaced the o-ring and all is good.i have had some trouble with the air leaking alot of places on the 6.0 when the oil gets out of the rails because the oil helps seal the system seems like sometimes it might lead you to look in the wrong direction but cranking the engine over seems to help in between checks. thanks guys for all your help.maybe i can repay the favor on a problem you have someday when i get better on these things still confuses my brain how it even started at all with that much o-ring gone

[Jim Warman]

Kevin... just as a little food for thought.... think "nitrogen".

 

We use nitrogen and an ultrasonic leak detector as one of our AC diag strategies.... Of course we regulate this down to about 150 or 200 PSI for the AC work.... If you choose your hose and such carefully, you can use this same gas regulated to 300 or 400 PSI for high pressure oil leaks.... You can either apply B+ (and a ground) to the IPR to close it or use your IDS/PDS/WDS to duty cycle the valve up... I prefer to use the scan tools.... first, you can roll the IPR "over the top" top be sure it is moving half assed correctly... second, you can duty cycle it to 85% or so and not worry about the coil overheating.

 

Nitrogen (and it's cheaper cousin "compressed air") should be available through the supplier that you use for oxygen, acetylene and MIG gas. The cylinders will be the same sizes as offered for O2 - nominal pressure of a full cylinder will be ~3000 PSI. An O2 cylinder regulator will work just fine.

 

If something like this isn't in your shop budget..... think about your local fire department.... Many are volunteer and some even have their own "cascade system" for filling breathing apparatus bottles.... The worst of these systems can deliver 2200 PSI or better of dried air. There is always the chance that you might do some horse trading for high pressure compressed air (talk your boss into lending parking lot space for demonstrations or displays, monetary support - helping the communtiy - , old wrecks for extrication exercises... name it....).

 

I like to "think outside the box".

[Bruce Amacker]

Just as a little food for thought.... think "nitrogen".

 

I like to "think outside the box".

Great tips, Jim. I talk about this in class regularly but have not done it first hand yet. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif

 

I'll be doing some "research" soon at the FMC training center center. Mebbe I'll put this on the list.....

[Tony302600]

Kevin, the one i had was the hex dummy plug bottom o-ring halfway blown out, sounded like the whole bank was leaking, only has 200-350 icp cranking hot. removed the plug, WALA!!

[eastendpowerstroke]

Do any of you have that old evap system tester that has a regulator,hose nitrogen tank and maybe even the ultrasonic ear thingy, etc. I'm sure nobody's using it sine you have the smoke machine now maybe it can still be of use?

[Keith Browning]

WOW!

 

Good call. We scrapped ours about three months ago! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

[Tony302600]

We use the suzuki one because it came with a boat load of attachments. Thats about the only good thing that came from being a Ford/Suzuki dealer.

[Jim Warman]

Kieth... bottle of nitrogen - maybe 50 bucks plus demurrage..... regulator and hose - maybe a C-note or so...... finding the leak quickly - PRICELESS!!

 

"It's never too late to start all over again...." - Steppenwolf....

[ktmlew]

Kieth... bottle of nitrogen - maybe 50 bucks plus demurrage..... regulator and hose - maybe a C-note or so...... finding the leak quickly - PRICELESS!!

 

"It's never too late to start all over again...." - Steppenwolf....

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/product.php?productid=300&cat=764&page=1

[kevin phillips]

tony302600, i think i had the exact same problem you had well at least i learned the hard way to look for it occuring It was the first one ive seen but with it being a ambulance the idle and underhood temps stay high and may have made the issue appear earlier but keep a eye open for it guys but 28000 miles or so was all it had on it

[Tony302600]

Kevin the one we found had 17,000 miles on it

[Bruce Amacker]

Kieth... bottle of nitrogen - maybe 50 bucks plus demurrage..... regulator and hose - maybe a C-note or so...... finding the leak quickly - PRICELESS!!

 

It might be easier than that. It turns out that nitrogen tanks are available in different pressures, and the lower PSI is 2000-2200. I bought a small 60 cubic foot tank, (mebbe 8" dia, knee high) used no regulator, and ran it full pressure in an ICP test. The tank cost $120, and the fittings and gauge another $45. Refills are $8. The supply shop told me it was 2000-2200psi, but the gauge showed 1700. The test worked very well! What I did was pressurize the system, close the supply, and see how long it took to bleed down. Here's my results:

 

1700PSI start, IPR at 97%

Close nitrogen supply valve

1 minute: 1100psi

2 minutes: 850psi

3 minutes: 700psi

4 minutes: 500psi

5 minutes: 350psi

6 minutes: 250psi

7 minutes: 100psi (approx)

 

 

 

 

I thought the IDS shut off active commands after a few minutes to prevent overheating the IPR. I left it in active commands at 97% for over a half hour....

 

I'm told you guys already have a nitrogen setup for evap testing. Is this correct? I'm willing to bet this setup will pay for itself quickly in time saved on a hard start hot...