Keith Browning Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Recall about three weeks ago I posted that "Doc gets to operate" as I began my first cab off repair. I have not followed up on that because the plot has thickened. Thought I would finally share... This is long so get a fresh beer or coffee. The 2008 F350 6.4L came in, customer complaining that truck wont go over 20 MPH and the check engine light on. Road test confirmed both items however, the truck was fine cold then began to misbehave once it warmed up. Accelerate moderately and around 1800 RPM it loses power and runs jerky, surging steadily. ease off the accelerator and it smooths out and idles normally. I noticed it was not constant as I tried to make a few data recordings. P0088 in memory with no other codes and passes KOEO & KOER self tests. The code brings you to PP test M for FRP too high. Starts out with clearing the code and retest. I got, no codes! M-1 says "return to symptom chart." /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif Thinking that the code means something I decide to proceed to M-2 and follow for the P0088 and see what turns up. Fuel supply pressure is 6 PSI bumping up .5 on accel and holds. Next we command RPM up and control FRP DES and monitor FRP to see if the commanded pressure and actual pressure jive. They did. This is basically a manual high pressure fuel system test. From there we begin checking the PCV & VCV solenoids and wiring and I come to PPT M-14. My PC wont display the entire pinpoint test so I am stuck! Who you gonna call? The HotLine gives me the info and I completed up to PPT M17 with all tests passing. The PCED says "Replace the PCM and reflass..." but the engineer says " but that wont fix it, put a pump in it." Huh? They supposedly have seen 18+ pumps fail similar to this. Sure, why not. OFF WITH IT'S CAB! The pump replacement went fine except for one broken cage nut and the pump cover gasket was back ordered 8 days or so. (it was revised - pictures coming) Seemed repaired, road tested and had it detailed for the customer. It still hasn't had its first oil change so its a new truck. Truck returned over the weekend doing the same exact thing. New diagnostics. Same identical story so this time I make a few recordings and call the HotLine again. Learned A LOT from Dan on how some of the PCM works in relation to the pump. We tossed around the idea that I got a bad pump /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif but maybe the FRP sensor was an in-range bias issue. I was directed to re-do Pinpoint Test M and then ME to check all circuits, maybe try a FRP sensor. M resulted in "replace PCM" and ME resulted in "replace fuel pump." /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif In goes the sensor and a road test. Not fixed. I called Dan back several times and went through the tests a third time because I am now mentally numb and apparently a fucking idiot! Even so, I reasoned with my findings and discussed it with one or two others. Circuits are good, the sensor is new and the pump is new. A PCM is on order... I mean backorder, D99 due to un-anticipated high demand. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rotz.gif Still with me? Later in the day Ford calls me. Two guys from the HotLine I think but not the "regular" guys on a conference call. We discussed it, my findings and the recordings I uploaded. "Go with the PCM." Remember the book said that from the get-go? When it comes in I'll update this post. We are going to have some really technical posts on engine controls with this engine for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I am now mentally numb and apparently a fucking idiot! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whattodo.gif Well, I am glad I am not the only frickin one. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif I feel for ya. How did the fuel look coming out of the fuel test port? I use my fuel pressure guage with a clear line on the end for bleeding and on a cople of pump failures, I have found major amounts of silver filings coming out of the system. I had one where Hotline made me replace every line in the circuit from the sencondary filter housing to the high pressure pump and then back to the sencondary housing due to the extreme contamination. It Was fine after that. Root cause of the concern: Jackass engineers still havn't changed that stupid little mushroom cap on top of the rear (after axle) tank. Still the same problem we have had since 1999 with these tanks. Suck water in from the top of the tank. Anyway Keith, yours sounds interesting. Good luck and may the force be with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I took a look at the hotline report and the two other guys you talked to were ITEC employees. Looks like they may be suspecting an HP system contamination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 26, 2007 Author Share Posted October 26, 2007 That would mean more air time for the truck. If that is the case then what would be a likely course of action? They made no mention of contamination and recommended replacing the PCM, probably because it was already ordered. I cant wait to make an effective repair and make some sense of all this. If fuel contamination is the culprit I would likely be replacing a lot of fuel system parts. Things also just got worse for me. We had a truck towed in with a 6.4L that likely grenaded. Made a loud bang while driving on the highway and shut off. I cranked it once, made a loud rap sound and locked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Its hard to say what they are going to have you replace if the PCM is not the cause. The report isnt too descriptive but it mentioned most of the stuff you said with some other things I wont repeat. It sounds like you may be getting some help next week if the PCM doesnt fix it. I look forward to hearing the result though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Keith only time I had a P0088 was when the customer filled up with gasoline instead of diesel. ALso had a p0087 and p2291. Flushed out gasoline and drained tank, ran awesome. Funny story.... The guy didnt believe that it was gasoline and was giving the service writer a hard time and calling us liars. SW took the sample and the customer and told him "if this is diesel then it will not light on fire. He poured a helpful amount on the ground and lit it.....customer flew back a foot from the flame, shut his mouth and paid for the mistake. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 The back ordered processor arrived last week and I got it in. We put over 100 miles on the truck this time before letting it go and without incident. I'm still not ready to fill out the hotline survey or call them back as I promised to do. I wanna be sure before calling this a fix. The first time it came aback a day later with only 35 miles on it. Can you tell I am nervous? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 so in retrospect when the next one comes in and it passes these (high, low) fuel press tests and you can't duplicate in a reasonable amount of driving time what do you think you would do? My question stems from the fact I have an 8K mile f350 doing the EXACT same thing, AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!! BTW DOESNT THE PPT SUCK?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 In hindsight, I will follow the service manual repair instructions before contemplating someone else's "advice." I think the PP Tests were not too bad actually but if you read this thread from the beginning the problem started with the online manual not displaying properly on my laptop. My Bad I guess but it still frosts my ass that the HotLine decided to change the direction of the repair for no good reason. UPDATE I forgot to report that the truck was fixed by the PCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I'm confused and by the way it sounds maybe you are too Keith /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif You say the PCM fixed it but you weren't convinced of the fix as per you diag. and techline conv.'s. Could this be something that techline already knew was a problem on some of the trucks but are making the techs jump thru the "hoop" like a dog does to just do the trouble shooting tree. The other thing that bothers me is why the part went D99. obviously there could be a problem with the PCM's parts don't just go b/o for no reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 Read what I wrote. I would have replaced the PCM as per the shop manual but because I called the HotLine due to the test not showing on my laptop and I needed help with the last two tests. Since the engineer was already on the phone with me, and despite reading that the repair was to replace the PCM he "stepped-up" and offered the advice to put a pump in it. I figured that "they" would have more insight and experience than I do... right? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif What would you have done? Right. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rotz.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I did read it.. I'm not questioning you Keith, I'm questioning techline??? Quote: Who you gonna call? The HotLine gives me the info and I completed up to PPT M17 with all tests passing. The PCED says "Replace the PCM and reflass..." but the engineer says " but that wont fix it, put a pump in it." Huh? They supposedly have seen 18+ pumps fail similar to this. Sure, why not. OFF WITH IT'S CAB! Maybe I'm missing something??? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Why would the engineer tell you to replace the pump? If everything points to the PCM? You got to the correct repair but had a engineer tell you to replace the pump and basically waste your time, until you got ahold of the right engineer and in the right direction. Remember I'm just a dumb parts guy, I'm trying to learn as well, and will ask maybe stupid questions to some of you but I need to understand as well as you do, and I will ask or say off the wall stuff to you guy's, but I'm on the other side of the parts counter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 First, you are not a dumb parts guy. C'mon. You know what it is Larry. I think you DO GET IT. You just dont BELEIVE IT! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I've had some problems with hotline recently similar to what Keith is saying. I call them and tell them what the tests have led me to and then they change the directions and leave me chasing my ass for several days. It probably stems from the fact that alot of inexperienced techs call the hotline first then open a book and try to do diag. Also I had a hotline "engineer" tell me that I could get both valve covers off an econoline 6.0L ambulance while it was still hot to do a high pressure air test because he was a tech too and had done it before. If these guys were great technicians then they wouldn't be sitting in an office answering phones. I'm sure some them are good and got out because of injuries or age but others are questionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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