99 Ranger 3.0L Flex Fuel PO171 & 174 codes

ktmlew · November 6, 2007

Customer is trying to get vehicle through emissions inspection. Has junkyard engine. Not sure what differences there are from a flex-fuel to the regular set-up? When cold it runs like crap, surges,stalls, etc like it's lean and doesn't run very good when warm. The fact it does it worse cold indicates a base fuel system problem but fuel pressure is right on spec. Don't have a smoke machine to check for intake leaks but have tried spraying everything with carb cleaner with IAC unplugged. No dice...

New plugs, wires, MAF, EGR valve. EGR is not sticking.

When first tested, didn't have any codes in system other than P1000, except pending 171 & 174. Fuel trims go to 22-27 at idle on both short & long term. Runs better with IAC disconnected. If IAC is connected vehicle runs crappy when driven. Fuel trim goes to 0 on LT but reads 43 on ST when driven. Baro PID seems to be all over the place as it sometimes is 157 and others 147-157. No rhyme or reason to it? I tried another MAF from Advance. Identical PID readings and performance. It won't run KOER as it apparently DOES have a problem with the IAC. Kicks a PO505 I think?

Boss is the type that will test for a week before replacing ANYTHING. I used to be exactly the same but have learned that sometimes you have to try something! It did go into open loop on one test drive and barely limped back to the shop which kicked PO131 & 151. When it goes nuts it blubbers like it's rich but isn't?

Customer says it's run this way since engine installed. Next up is to pull plenum and do a pressure drop test on injectors, then pull lower intake to inspect gaskets. This is the only thing I hate about being at an Indy shop. Lack of tools and technical help when you get a problem child!

Bruce Amacker · November 6, 2007

Customer is trying to get vehicle through emissions inspection. Has junkyard engine. Not sure what differences there are from a flex-fuel to the regular set-up? When cold it runs like crap, surges,stalls, etc like it's lean and doesn't run very good when warm. The fact it does it worse cold indicates a base fuel system problem but fuel pressure is right on spec. Don't have a smoke machine to check for intake leaks but have tried spraying everything with carb cleaner with IAC unplugged. No dice...

New plugs, wires, MAF, EGR valve. EGR is not sticking.

When first tested, didn't have any codes in system other than P1000, except pending 171 & 174. Fuel trims go to 22-27 at idle on both short & long term. Runs better with IAC disconnected. If IAC is connected vehicle runs crappy when driven. Fuel trim goes to 0 on LT but reads 43 on ST when driven. Baro PID seems to be all over the place as it sometimes is 157 and others 147-157. No rhyme or reason to it? I tried another MAF from Advance. Identical PID readings and performance. It won't run KOER as it apparently DOES have a problem with the IAC. Kicks a PO505 I think?

Boss is the type that will test for a week before replacing ANYTHING. I used to be exactly the same but have learned that sometimes you have to try something! It did go into open loop on one test drive and barely limped back to the shop which kicked PO131 & 151. When it goes nuts it blubbers like it's rich but isn't?

Customer says it's run this way since engine installed. Next up is to pull plenum and do a pressure drop test on injectors, then pull lower intake to inspect gaskets. This is the only thing I hate about being at an Indy shop. Lack of tools and technical help when you get a problem child!

First of all, does it has gas or E85 in the tank? The injectors should have a much higher flow rate on a FF motor, which would cause big grief if they didn't transfer the peripherals. Look at the engineering # on the injectors and cross it, as if they are wrong, the PCM will be really confused. A reflash is the first thing I'd do, because they've upgraded the software several times on these engines. What does the alcohol % read in scan data? You can use a beaker and some water to figure a %. It should have a alcohol sensor on it an read % in datalogger. What scan tool are you using?

Good Luck!

eastendpowerstroke · November 7, 2007

as Bruce said the injectors are different on a FF and if mixed with non FF parts will cause untold issues and would be where I would start looking. base engine wise the 3.0 FF and non FF are the same.

What are the O2 sensor voltage readings are they switching or stuck low? and/or possibly damaged by whatever caused the prior engine failure? if there dead volts will be low and LOW is LEAN.

Did some hack crush the harness in between the engine and trans??

ktmlew · November 7, 2007

I was off work today so didn't get any more done on it, but did stop and tell the boss, "we" are on-the-case! I appreciate the help guys.

o2's read normally most of the time. On last test drive it was coming around, Baro was reading 156 (normal here is 155-157), LT fuel was 0 and ST 12 when I started to turn off highway. Instant I chopped throttle it went berserk and started lean surging and would barely run, 02's dropped to 0 and system went into open loop. Limped back to shop. Ran this way for at least 20 minutes. Since it was in open loop scan data was of dubious value...Shut-off and connected fuel pressure gage to see if something had gone haywire. 58psi running.

I've looked wiring over and found some close calls, wiring was touching EGR tube, but no damage yet. I still want to get an IAC on it so it will run the KOER test. Not sure if the IAC possibly has a short and kicks the system into Failure Effects Management Mode?

This one is going to be an ass-kicker!!! We have approval for 2 more hours diag on it at this point.

ktmlew · November 7, 2007

As for scan tools we have a brick and a brand new demo Modis. I've told hime about the general opinion of the Modis but he's a Snap-on guy so? Tried to get him to go for either the Pro EASE software, inspection machine is EASE and has basic diag program, or the Auto Integrity deal on a laptop.

Hmmmmm? Forgot about the EASE deal? Maybe we should try it and see what it offers?

ktmlew · November 8, 2007

Ok...not my problem any longer. I folded my tent and went home. Let the boss figure it out as he didn't trust anything I told him... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

Unemployed again! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whattodo.gif

eastendpowerstroke · November 8, 2007

Quote:

I folded my tent and went home.Unemployed again!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif WELL THEN I guess thats one way to fix it! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif
you probaly shouldn't work for a guy that thinks because a scan tool costs the most it must be the best anyway. good luck

ktmlew · November 8, 2007

He built a brand new 8 bay building and still has no heat...he's not one to make any "rash" decisions. Been open since early August and it's been down under 30 here already. The choices are Propane or waste oil heater. Just make a freaking decision dewd!

The final straw was a 01 Windstar that came in last week on my day off. Usual lean codes. He sold them plugs and fuel filter as it had 80K on it and appeared to be OE fuel filter. Mentioned to customer that intake gaskets may need replaced as it was a known problem.

"C" tech performed the work on the tune-up and mentioned it had a knock...they thought it sounded like a rod knock. So it comes back with CEL on and lean codes. I diag it as needing complete intake re-seal from heads up. He has techs call for parts and look up labor times. I give him the ticket with "Intake gaskets" $XX.XX. He comes out and asks 3 or 4 ways how I determined what it needed...then comes out again and asks if ALL the parts are included in my list as it's much cheaper than Ford prices.

"No asshole...been doing this for 30 freaking years and I always price out half the parts to screw your estimate up"...what it comes down to is, he has never done one of these, so he isn't 100% sure it needs to be done. At some point while discussing the situation with another tech, he mentions the knock. Fire it up and sure enough it's the upper intake rattling...after 40 minutes of arguing what was making the noise, I blew a gasket. He wanted us to take it apart to verify the upper intake was coming apart as "he had never seen or heard of that"...

Every single job was a battle with him to prove your diagnosis. I really don't like to be second guessed if I haven't given a good reason to be. Typical deal where the guy on the counter knows more than the tech...

I'm not perfect but damned close! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Brad Clayton · November 8, 2007

Quote:

Every single job was a battle with him to prove your diagnosis. I really don't like to be second guessed if I haven't given a good reason to be. Typical deal where the guy on the counter knows more than the tech...

I'm gonna continue this over at the on the job section.

ktmlew · January 12, 2008

as Bruce said the injectors are different on a FF and if mixed with non FF parts will cause untold issues and would be where I would start looking. base engine wise the 3.0 FF and non FF are the same.

What are the O2 sensor voltage readings are they switching or stuck low? and/or possibly damaged by whatever caused the prior engine failure? if there dead volts will be low and LOW is LEAN.

Did some hack crush the harness in between the engine and trans??

I checked in with them last week and the Ranger was gone so asked what they found. They replaced the injectors with the correct ones and it ran fine.