DT466 No Start

[Bruce Amacker]

Hey Guys:

 

I have been helping a guy with two 2005 DT466 (EGR) engines with no starts. They are both on a small island nation in the Caribbean with the nearest IH dealer many miles away in the US. This saga extends nearly a year, with my being involved for the last few months. The reason the time frame is so long is that whenever parts are ordered, there is an extended wait before they arrive. The tech has MD Fleet, ISIS, and a Pico 4 channel, and knows how to use them. It appears like we are facing fuel system contamination/sabotage from an unknown source. These are garbage trucks and there may be political motives behind having them not run.

 

I've traded had nearly a hundred emails with this guy and had extensive phone conversations (on his tab) during this incredibly long diagnostic process. I got involved about 3 months ago when he called to order a book and told me his story. Truck #1 has been a no-start for nearly a year now. On the advice of a US IH dealer, he had already changed the: ECM, FICM, harness, CKP, CMP, and pulled the front cover off to verify there were no spun keyways in the geartrain. It was a frigging mess! I feel really bad for this guy because the IH system has let him down so miserably. He has obviously spent a boatload of money with nothing to show for it.

 

The truck ran fine early this year on a Friday and was parked for the weekend. It would not start on Monday morning. Incredibly, Truck #2 (a twin to truck #1) was parked on a Friday in October and also would not start on the following Monday morning. I bet this guy is afraid to come to work on Mondays.

 

IH had him convinced he had a spun keyway in the geartrain. Being that he has the same scope that I do, I walked him through a CKP/CMP waveform test like we did on the 6.0 thread recently.

After verifying good CKP/CMP correlation scope patterns with my known good samples, we found the oil system empty from removing the timing cover, and an air block in the HP oil rail. We finally got ICP voltage up to where the injectors would fire, and I had him make one of Keith's injector light bulb tools to verify injector signal. (The 2005 DT466 EGR engine was completely redesigned and now shares many system similarities with the 6.0.) The truck still wouldn't start. I had him pull and disassemble the injectors to find crud in the fuel galleys. 6 new injectors later, it still wouldn't start, and then we found all of the intake valves hung in the guides and several piston rings stuck in the grooves. I've had him soak the holes really well with carb cleaner in an attempt to get this thing going without disassembling the engine, but I'm not so confident that won't happen now. The tech is really a great guy; a BMW master tech and very knowledgeable about everything except a HEUI system. He has offered to pay my way to come down there (which I still might do) but with the parts supply problems I think I can diagnose it better from up here. He's sharp and follows directions well.

 

The fuel on the island is a different color and odor with every delivery, so you know there's quality control problems. Color can vary from clear, to tan, to brown, to red. I suspect the refineries are dumping substandard fuel on them because they're so far from anywhere.

 

The real problem is a political struggle over the privatization of these garbage trucks and the trash pickup. There was an election recently that was hotly debated and the privatization candidate lost the election. We feel a political entity is sabotaging the packers so they cannot run. He is in charge of the all gov't vehicles on the island, and states he has many times more problems with these trash trucks that all other vehicles. An additional problem is the trucks never get heated up. Many idle hours, all low speed driving, everything diesels hate. The island is 6 miles long, and the engines can't be heated up properly. Truck #2 has considerable oil sludge under the valve cover.

 

What I am looking for from you guys is real world information about diesel fuel contamination. What happens when sugar is mixed with diesel? What about molasses, soaps, cleaning products, and other common household substances? What substance, when mixed with diesel fuel, would cause these symptoms? A fuel analysis is obviously in order, but once again the location of the trucks puts a large hindrance on getting this done. I can't imagine trying to mail a sample of diesel fuel into the US. Any experiences you may have with known fuel contamination is welcome.

 

Whatever comes of these trucks is the making of a wild case study to be used in class. You just can't make up BS like this.....

 

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[eastendpowerstroke]

He has offered to pay my way to come down there

Sorry Bruce I can't add a lot to this but I did notice that you didn't say if the fuel tanks were drained/flushed as well as some of the basics like fuel pressure. It would be a shame to spend all that time only to find out that some minor step was skipped.

 

If you need any help down there let me know

[Keith Browning]

Bruce, does this guy suspect fuel contamination? Any mention of odd color or odor? Sediment or solids forming? Some chemicals might be hard to detect with the eyes ears and nose. The only contamination I have seen is engine oil, gasoline and water.

 

Isn't there a testing company that he could ship to?

 

I once came across a 5.0L in an old F-150 that has been sabotaged with sugar. It drove another dealer nuts for a year, they even put an engine in it and when the problems returned it came to my dealer. We were mystified by the driveability problems as well. When I removed the intake I noticed a crusty build-up under the injectors... looked crystal like... yes I tasted it and it was sugar! Point is, I didn't think sugar would easily dissolve in fuel but it did. When the injector sprayed the sugar laden fuel it crystallized in the intake until the injectors were blocked off.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Bruce everyone is looking at fuel...What about the oil???

 

Quote:

Truck #2 has considerable oil sludge under the valve cover.

Quote:

I had him pull and disassemble the injectors to find crud in the fuel galleys

 

Was this the fuel galleys or oil?

 

How about pressure at the filter? Was it building pressure or just flowing(like the 7.3 thread we have going now).

What about the bypass/regulator?

[Bruce Amacker]

Bruce everyone is looking at fuel...What about the oil???

 

The oil was changed during the diag process.

 

Quote:

Truck #2 has considerable oil sludge under the valve cover.

Quote:

I had him pull and disassemble the injectors to find crud in the fuel galleys

 

Was this the fuel galleys or oil?

 

In the fuel galleys entering the side of the injector and in the nozzle assy.

 

 

For size comparison:

Top: 6.0 injector.(little bro)

 

Bottom:

 

2005 DTD466 injector (BIG bro')

 

How about pressure at the filter? Was it building pressure or just flowing(like the 7.3 thread we have going now).

What about the bypass/regulator?

Good pressure, holds 60psi while cranking. I had him flush the filter and line area and put fresh fuel in the filter, but not the tank. He's pulling the tank now. Thanks for responding!

 

 

Patriots/Giants: Hell of a game! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

[slim]

I've never seen diesel contamination other than sediment or water but I work on alot of gas engines and have seen gas contamination/sabotage. I don't think gas would be all that different from diesel. Two stick out in my mind. The first was an Expedition that came in on transit from Florida. They had just come from another ford dealer that put several injectors, fuel rail and fuel filter in for sticking injectors/misfire. I don't see many injector problems so when I have an engine with several injectors sticking open and/or closed then I know somethings up. I pulled the gas tank out and could see blobs of clear liquid rolling around in the bottom of the gas tank. I did my best to get samples of the blobs and left them out to evaporate. When they dried out there was a gummy/grainy substance left behind. I figured this was some kind of clear soda like sprite or whatever. I couldn't see anything wrong with fuel pump and there was not any blockage on the screen. The fuel filter flowed good like it was new so the only problem was with the injectors and the small orifices in the injectors being clogged or the pintle being held open. Out of all this I concluded that the particles or sugar in a dissolved state was able to pass through the fuel pump screen and fuel filter and only caused real trouble at the injectors maybe because of the heat at the engine or the small orifices inside. There are only a few things that will mix with fuel and the only things I know of are oil based and shouldn't cause problems, but other water based substances won't mix and should be visible in the tank. Also pouring sugar into a fuel tank wouldn't be very easy and probably very noticeable but pouring a sugary drink into the tank would be easy.

Ditto on the football game-thought the Giants were going to upset them after watching the first half.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Ahhh the Patriot's, and the quest... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/king.gif

 

Good try by the Giant's though, looked good /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

 

And then there are my Lion's... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gifAnyone looking to buy a team? I guess I'll stick to my Red Wings /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

 

Bruce is that a actual breakdown of one of the injectors?

[Bruce Amacker]

Bruce is that a actual breakdown of one of the injectors?

Yes, The tech e-mailed me several pics of the truck and etc. The pic I posted shows the "crud" on the outside and inside of the injectors in question.

 

Happy New Year!

 

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[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Quote:

6 new injectors later, it still wouldn't start, and then we found all of the intake valves hung in the guides and several piston rings stuck in the grooves. I've had him soak the holes really well with carb cleaner in an attempt to get this thing going without disassembling the engine, but I'm not so confident that won't happen now.

Bruce you have me scratching my head /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif
I have read all the posts over and over again, this almost sounds like "lot rot" It may be from the engines never getting up to temp and not enough load for them. The pics of the injector broken down, the injector tip looks like a lot of carbon build up, not necessarily contamination. It obviously has fuel quality concerns, Does he use any additives? Lubricity/Cetane boost, do you see where I'm going with this?

[Bruce Amacker]

this almost sounds like "lot rot" It may be from the engines never getting up to temp and not enough load for them.

There's no doubt in my mind this is a big part of the problem, and it's obviously management oriented.

 

Originally Posted By: LARRYATSTI

The pics of the injector broken down, the injector tip looks like a lot of carbon build up, not necessarily contamination. It obviously has fuel quality concerns, Does he use any additives? Lubricity/Cetane boost, do you see where I'm going with this?

He does not use additives to my knowledge. I'm sure there are management issues in this organization, as with any large organization. He has 300 vehicles to maintain and has 1-2 helpers. It sounds like he's overworked, and that's part of the reason these trucks still don't run after such a long time. I'll e-mail him, and he'll tell me the trucks are on the back burner, 'cause he has 2 trannies to overhaul, etc, etc. I think they're shorthanded (big surprise, eh?) because he tells me some of the maintenance is up to the drivers. Truck #1's driver is much better at maintenance than Truck #2's driver.....

 

Hey guys, I wonder if they're paying sign on bonuses? All I can think of is those Corona beer commercials with the guy on the beach. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Wouldn't that be the coolest place to work?

 

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[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

I'm in, but I need the babe in the commercial to be there too. Just for a little while, obviously there is a lot of work to do. Mmmmm 80+ degrees, boats,babes,BEER what more could you ask for.

 

Bruce, when do we leave?

[Aaron_Johnson]

Is there smoke coming from the stacks/pipe while he is cranking it over? Where exactly is he measuring fuel pressure from? After both filters? Have him remove a fuel gallery plug from the head and see if there is pressure and volume at the head. If there is, and all the injectors are new (I think you said they were) Tell him to take his suction line off the lift pump and try to run the engine off a clean fuel container with known good fuel. Maybe he could take fuel from a truck that is running ok. It would be a good idea to change all of the filters as well, Maybe it has a plugged filter or one that is sucking air. You have already ruled out the ICP system and the electrical part of the injectors so after the fuel system is ok back to basics. Is the exhaust or air intake plugged off? Is the engine in time? Are the valves set correctly? If the valve were stuck in the guides its possible they touched a piston and are bent causing low compression. Maybe you have been through all of this...just some things to think about maybe lol

 

I'll make you a deal....I'll go there and fix them at my own expense if you come and fix my nightmare bus /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Bruce this may sound a little redundant but has your guy taken a look at the lift/transfer pump on these trucks. I was in the "oval" office and thinking about this, no one even brought it up. Has he dropped the cover off of the module and checked the heater? I have seen a bunch of these get Goobered up, and it just looks like they melted a candle inside.

 

By the way I will give up some time and go down there with Aaron to help out. But the wife stays here. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

[eastendpowerstroke]

I want to remind you Larry and Aaron that I volunteered to suffer a trip to the Caribbean FIRST!!!!!

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Ok the 3 amigos!!!HOY

 

Sorry Bruce your out!!!

[blown99]

The picture you show of the contaminated inj. looks like many that I have removed that had rusty fuel tanks. I still am not sure how it makes it past the filters but it does. Where is he taking his fuel pressure reading from? That is a returnless fuel system. The only port to take a reading from is on the intake/fuel manifold at the top front of the engine on the left side. He will have either a shraeder valve or a compucheck fitting. It is possible to read fuel pressure and not actually have fuel at the inj.. The air gets bound between the inj. and incoming fuel with no where to go because it is a returnless system. To bleed the system he needs to fill the filter housing, depress the shraeder valve/compucheck fitting and use the hand primer to bleed the fuel rail until steady fuel comes out. Does the turbo actuator cycle when the key is turned on? Do the injectors buzz when the key is turned on? Remove the EGR valve and visually make sure it is not stuck open? This can cause a hard start no start. Remove the valve cover. Disconnect the cam sensor so the engine will not start. Energize the IPR valve with power and grounds. Crank the engine and look under the high pressure oil manifold. The injector tops and or pucks may be leaking. (not so much injectors in this case since they were replaced). When he is cranking the engine, it should crank at a normal speed for about 5 seconds and then get bogged down. This is the hpop being worked to the max. Does it do this?

[Bruce Amacker]

Is there smoke coming from the stacks/pipe while he is cranking it over?

 

 

Yes, an not only from the exhaust, but also from the pushrod tube area (blowby).

 

Where exactly is he measuring fuel pressure from?

 

The Schrader valve on the fuel rail.

 

After both filters?

 

Yes, after the filter. (only one)

 

Have him remove a fuel gallery plug from the head and see if there is pressure and volume at the head. If there is, and all the injectors are new (I think you said they were) Tell him to take his suction line off the lift pump and try to run the engine off a clean fuel container with known good fuel.

 

That's exactly what he's doing right now.

 

 

Maybe he could take fuel from a truck that is running ok.

 

That's exactly what I had him do when he put in the new injectors- drain the FF, put clean fuel in it, with some conditioner. This is a returnless system, so there's no real flow unless the engine starts. Great minds think alike!

 

It would be a good idea to change all of the filters as well,

 

Done.

 

Maybe it has a plugged filter or one that is sucking air. You have already ruled out the ICP system and the electrical part of the injectors so after the fuel system is ok back to basics. Is the exhaust or air intake plugged off?

 

Currently the downpipe is removed from the turbo so he can see white smoke immediately when cranking. The intake pipe was off for a long time, and I told him the other day to remove the intake plenum to look inside with a mirror and a flashlight in case a rag got sucked inside. Of the 6 hung intake valves, #5 gave him the most grief getting unstuck, which made me think there was a rag caught. #5 is directly opposite the plenum/intake manifold port.

 

 

Is the engine in time?

 

Yes, the dealer had him pull the timing cover off and pull things down to look for spun keyways. This is stupid, because it's much easier to compare CMP/CKP waveforms with known good. (which is what I did). I've never heard of a spun cam keyway, but I have heard of spun crank keyways, which would show up on a waveform test. His CKP/CMP waveform is exactly like my known good example.

 

Are the valves set correctly?

 

Yes.

If the valve were stuck in the guides its possible they touched a piston and are bent causing low compression. Maybe you have been through all of this...just some things to think about maybe lol

 

Yep, been through all of this. I had him oil and beat the valves with a dead blow hammer to free them up. All came loose with #5 intake giving the most problem, which is why I suspected a sucked rag.

 

I'll make you a deal....I'll go there and fix them at my own expense if you come and fix my nightmare bus /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Let me think about it.

 

OK, I thought about it for a while. NO!

 

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[Bruce Amacker]

Bruce this may sound a little redundant but has your guy taken a look at the lift/transfer pump on these trucks.

 

If we have good fuel pressure and no compression, why would I be looking here?

 

 

I was in the "oval" office and thinking about this, no one even brought it up. Has he dropped the cover off of the module and checked the heater?

?? Intake heater? I don't think it has one. The plenum should be off of it right now anyway.

 

I have seen a bunch of these get Goobered up, and it just looks like they melted a candle inside.

 

The intake heater?

 

By the way I will give up some time and go down there with Aaron to help out. But the wife stays here. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

[Bruce Amacker]

The picture you show of the contaminated inj. looks like many that I have removed that had rusty fuel tanks. I still am not sure how it makes it past the filters but it does. Where is he taking his fuel pressure reading from?

 

The Schrader on the front of the rail, which is the only place (you know that).

 

 

That is a returnless fuel system.

 

Yep, I know. I teach these engines, wrote a book on them, and have built a complete cutaway engine for use in class. See this link:

http://www.turbotraining.com/truck/DT466.htm

 

 

The only port to take a reading from is on the intake/fuel manifold at the top front of the engine on the left side. He will have either a schrader valve or a compucheck fitting. It is possible to read fuel pressure and not actually have fuel at the inj.. The air gets bound between the inj. and incoming fuel with no where to go because it is a returnless system. To bleed the system he needs to fill the filter housing, depress the shraeder valve/compucheck fitting and use the hand primer to bleed the fuel rail until steady fuel comes out.

 

Yep, we both know that, and I've had him bleed/flush the engine side of the system. He's probably pulling the tank now to see what's inside, and installing a 5 gallon bucket of clean fuel to run it off of. I think the tank has some kind of non-flammable "glop" in it that hardened inside the injectors when the engine cooled off.

 

 

Does the turbo actuator cycle when the key is turned on?

 

Yes, now that he's replaced the turbo twice. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

Do the injectors buzz when the key is turned on?

 

Yes.

 

Remove the EGR valve and visually make sure it is not stuck open?

 

Done that, and he put on a known good EGR from another truck. Then I had him put a blockoff shim of sheet metal between it and the plenum.

 

 

This can cause a hard start no start.

 

BTDT.

 

Remove the valve cover. Disconnect the cam sensor so the engine will not start. Energize the IPR valve with power and grounds. Crank the engine and look under the high pressure oil manifold. The injector tops and or pucks may be leaking.

 

We weren't getting sufficient ICPV for a long time and finally got over that hurdle. This was due to the LP/HP oil system being empty from the timing cover being off. He did an air check at the 45 fitting on the head (no leaks with shop air) and is getting ICPV of .24 KOEO and 1.5-1.6V cranking so I'm not worried about ICP leaks at this point. He did change out the o-rings at the swivel fittings when he did the injectors.

 

I had him take an old valve cover gasket, cut one injector feed connector off of it, and solder two light bulbs in place of the injector circuit. Plugging this into the harness at the valve cover verifies injector signal. The buzz test sounds normal, and we are finally getting injector signal KOEC. This tells me the ECM is seeing an acceptable CMP/CKP signal, powers and grounds, and sufficient ICPV to energize the injectors (probably about .8v). You can graph all of this in MD, which he did, but scan tools can still lie to you so I like to rely on ICPV. BTDT, been burned before trusting scan tools, so I usually double check with a scope or a DVOM to be sure on a tough one. He's sent me numerous MD captures which all look normal except for the relative compression test.

 

Once we got this and had no fire and no white smoke led me to the injector contamination problem. Once we got past this hurdle and had white smoke, the flipping smoke was coming from the pushrod tube area in the heads. Ruh Roh- this means big time blow by. The relative compression test in MDF didn't look good, but with all 6 intakes hung open and rings stuck, there's nothing "relative" to a compression test. I was concentrating on getting fuel to the holes and the getting the ECM/electronic end happy without thinking about basic compression. Who the hell would think about basic compression on a morning no-start? With no ICPV and no injector pulse, that's where I started. Once we got ICPV and injector pulse/white smoke, that's when we found the compression problem. What a mess.

 

He didn't know what Ether was, as they call it "quick start" down there, but the engine wouldn't run on quick start, either. Ruh Roh.

 

I had him pull the EGR and install a blockoff plate. Then I had him do a cranking vacuum test to see how sound the bottom of the engine is. (I teach cranking vacuum in gas classes as a quick test of bottom end integrity and cam timing) When the cranking vacuum was low, I had him pull the injectors and apply shop air to the injector holes at TDC and there was big leakage at both the intake manifold and the pushrod tube area on top of the head. Then I had him pull the rocker shaft off and apply shop air to the injector holes again and there was leakage from all 6 holes into the intake manifold (white smoke from the plenum, residual fuel vapor) Christ, we have hung intake valves in all 6 holes! Beat the valves with a dead blow to get the valves free, and apply shop air again, now we have big time blowby past 4 pistons!

 

I think I'm gonna get sick. I can't imagine how the tech feels.

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OK, now soak all 6 holes with quarts of carb cleaner to see if the rings will come loose without engine teardown. He filled the cylinders through the injector holes and kept them filled overnight with carb clean and a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil as a lube for when it starts to spin. Not we have minimal leakage on 4 holes and some leakage on 2 holes. He elected to assemble the valvetrain and injectors and attempt starting the engine. Now it hits and tries to start, but still won't quite run on it's own. He holds his cell phone by the engine and tries to start it for me so I can hear what's going on. A couple of cylinders are running, but not enough for it to pull away from the starter. Strangely ehough, he's ecstatic about this, as it's the closest it's been to running for nearly a year!

 

 

 

 

(not so much injectors in this case since they were replaced). When he is cranking the engine, it should crank at a normal speed for about 5 seconds and then get bogged down. This is the hpop being worked to the max. Does it do this?

I never thought about this, but when he holds the cell phone up and cranks the engine, yes, it does sound like it slows down after a bit of cranking. Anyway, with the ICPV going from .24 to 1.6 I'm not worried about ICP at this point. Anthony Crespo (who works for me) is also an IH Diamond tech, and we've had extensive conversations about these trucks. Your train of thought is pretty much exactly the same as ours at this point.

 

I'm thinking whatever "glop" is in the fuel tank not only contaminated the injectors, but also cooled off to a crust that hung the valves and rings. Think of a hard baked sugar crust that can hang the valve guides and rings.

 

 

Thanks for your input, the more heads, the better. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

 

This is the most bizarre tech support problem I've ever had. You just can't make up $hit like this.

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[Bruce Amacker]

For those watching, here's the latest: soaking with carb cleaner did not free up the rings, so down it comes. Severe sleeve ridge wear and rings stuck in several pistons, sleeve kit here we come.

 

18,000 miles. Good grief. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif

 

Tech agrees that an oil analysis is mandatory and says there's NFW he can get a sample into the States for analysis. I said he must find a way....

 

 

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[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Bruce I could possibly send a UPS international or FedEx international call tag for a pickup for this and I think it would make it back to us. What do you think?

[Bruce Amacker]

Bruce I could possibly send a UPS international or FedEx international call tag for a pickup for this and I think it would make it back to us. What do you think?

I really appreciate this offer. Could you ask your UPS/FedEx guys what they think about getting an oil sample over the border? The tech thinks there's little hope.

 

Thanks, Larry!

 

PS I've been meaning to PM you. Please send me (or post) a few PN's and prices of common 7.3, 6.0, and DT injectors and I'll put them in my classes. We do a lot of training for gov't agencies in Ohio, maybe I can send you some sales. I assume you handle both reman and Alliant? Please send both.

 

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[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Bruce I'm waiting on my UPS rep to call me back. Check out this site, this may help you out in the meantime.

 

http://www.intertek-cb.com/analytical_services/oils.shtml

 

 

I'll P/M you on the injectors.

 

Just had a thought, I showed the breakdown of the injector to my fuel shop manager he looked at it for a few minutes and believes that this is a lubrication issue. If the cyl's have a ridge could this be a blow back issue and possibly be a lack of compression? Or possibly washed down cyl's, not likely on a diesel but possible if the rings are compressed and won't release? Lot's of sludge lack of PM's...Bad JUJU

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Bruce any update on this one??? Would like to help more if possible!!!!

[Bruce Amacker]

Funny you should ask. In one of my last posts, he pulled the engine down to find severe cylinder sleeve ridges and stuck piston rings. The tech put in a Works Kit (sleeves, pistons bearings, etc), removed, cleaned, and lapped all of the valves, and assembled it. Yesterday afternoon he called and held his phone up for me to hear the engine, which had just started. This guy is happy!

 

He has Truck #2 to do the same thing to waiting in the wings.

 

As far as the oil analysis goes, he knows it is important, but country borders are the hurdle. It's out of my hands.

 

I'll keep you posted on updates.

 

Thanks!