Tony302600 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 WEll i want to be the first to know when its available for the 04 because my buddy is anxious.. OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 i should be done with it in about 1-2 months.. i do have some pics i can show u if i can figure out how to upload them on here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 If you're tuner isn't going to control fuel, what will it control? At the same time, most of the tailpipe emissions we have to worry about are colourless and/or odourless. FWIW... and I hope everyone is listening here.... as automotive technicians, we are the gusrdians of our planets future.... Whether we agree with emissions requirements or not, these are required "by law".. plain and simple fact... I am doing everything in my power to reduce the effect of my excesses on the environment... but I'm not doing it so someone else can neglect his responsibilty to the same cause.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 In my opinion I don't think the majority of America could care less about automotive emmisions. Look at the racing industry we have, stock cars, drag cars, power boats, nuff said there. Then you have the gas guzzling vehicles we drive and don't seem to want to give up any time soon, not to mention the driving habits of going one block to get a gallon of milk when a brisk walk would have been better for all. Sorry to stray from the topic but there is a lot of hypochracy going on in this day and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 FWIW... and I hope everyone is listening here.... as automotive technicians, we are the gusrdians of our planets future.... Whether we agree with emissions requirements or not, these are required "by law".. plain and simple fact... Here, here... All this talk about tuners and "overfuelling boxes" and EGR disabling is getting my panties in a knot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 the tuner will have a switch to control fuel or not.. i have the 6gun to control the fuel so im bypassing that for now.. by the way this is going to be called (for legal issues) an egr test system.. it will be used to check the status of the engine without having to worry about the egr cooler or valve.. iv seen people complain about loss of power and its because of the egr valve.. pluging this in will bypass that to test that the engine is running correctly,, thats one way to find out the egr system is fault.. as for emissions.. ya there is a lot of "law" involved on emissions but lets make an analoge.. there are diesel dragster and pickups that smoke like a fire hose.. they have no emissions but they smoke. there are also trucks that have different tuners that smoke bad. now what about a dragster that is diesel and doesnt smoke,, or a truck. like we have developed. i see alot of pickups that smoke like that, and honestly i dont really care for it.. some guys think its bad ass.. i would rather see a nice truck or dragster go down the track fast with no smoke then watching a blacksmoking locomotive go done the street.. like i said i have ways to test emissions on this little engineering thing im doing so i will let you know what the statis is for clean burning non egr 6.0 that doesnt smoke, no loss of power, and no check lights.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Brad, equating fuel consumption with tailpipe (and/or evaporative) emissions is a common mistake. While we all need to be concerned about the rate at which we're consuming non-renewable resources... it is the quality of our air that is of greater concern at the present time. If people are affluent enough to afford what it costs to feed their choice of transport... that's fine.... as long as tailpipe emissions are in line with the production year of the unit... As for professional motorsports.... would it be interesting to learn that "off road" industries (logging, quarrying, construction) aren't under the same restrictions as the general public for many of their fuels and such? Professional Motorsports have been allowed the luxury of not having to add expensive R&D into "greener" fuels (though NASCAR is researching alternatives to leaded gasoline). But, compared to what we, the general public, consume in our day to day activities, motorsports is just a drop in the bucket.... not to mention nobody is going to consider political suicide at this point by legislating "green" fuels for these activities. Let's add that most racing venues don't happen on publicly funded roads.... If any of us are going to start messing around with fuel or timing curves, or if we are going to alter the operation of the working charge dilution (EGR) ratios, we should ensure that we aren't exceeding the emissions limits legislated for that particular vehicle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Jim, the reason i like banks is because like he said, Gale doesnt like messing with emissions stuff. Now Jim, I want to do the EGR block off because of the gas mileage increase on my buddies truck. So blocking off the EGR to cooler inlet and a mileage tune to get my buddies truck to 27-28MPG is bad. His truck does not blow black smoke, he mainly leaves it on level 3 the highest fuel mileage setting, and it runs better, stronger, with no notice in tailpipe smoke. I think of it as conserving with no increase in emmision. Jim, Banks has a 7sec 1/4mile diesel that does not blow any black smoke.... THAT IS IMPRESSIVE. Here it is.... not no smoke on the launch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 and you know there is a reason for the no smoke on the launch and the rest of the runs.. we actually werent running intercoolers.. that motor is the motor out of our road racing truck.. it makes 1000 hp and 1800lbft torque.. we are still only running 60% of its actually capacity of hp.. but for the no smoke we had to add NOS to make up for not running intercoolers.. but NOS is just a shot of cold air, and on a diesel it reacts a little differently... NOS on a diesel will actually increase the fire timing a little more.. causing all the fuel to burn.. which in this case aloud us to add more fuel and make more power.. but still no smoke.. Very nice.. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLR95 Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Your exactly right about NOS thats another reason on top of adding power is cleaning up the fuel. Many diesel dragsters are running nos and the majority of them have a haze coming out of the tailpipe and thats about it. And Im talking about diesel trucks not rails because they are running 12 valve cummins and we all know those things smoke like a freight train. Not too bad when you have garden hose size injectors pouring fuel into the cylinders. Tony I don't know if your buddy will ever see 27mpg and if he does that is fantastic. I run a tuner on my truck that shuts off the egr valve and I like it for the fact I won't have an egr issue and yes Jim its against the law but in my opinion it is better for my engine and no I don't see anything more than 20mpg. A six liter turbo can actually handle a decent amount of fuel. On the high setting for me it will smoke at first but turn into mainly a haze at wide open throttle. Hell big trucks smoke at the start but clean up soon after so whats the difference. Id be curious to know how much of a difference there is with the egr valve on and the egr valve off when it comes to emissions. Maybe jz can find that out for us? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 anyone can just shut an egr valve off just by simply unplugging it,, but u still have that flash point at the egr cooler,, so theres a substancal amount of heat that your not getting rid of. the more heat you can get away from the better,, but to get rid of the smoke on the bottom end u have to decrease accelerator pump pressure.. you have a lack of air on the bottom end.. you have to look at the air/fuel ratio.. im gunna stop the heat at the source, no the valve.. any exhaust heat that hits that valve is to close to the intake air an decreases air density.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Not too mention all that head that is building up in the EGR cooler which will cook it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 exactly!!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flamethrower.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Not too mention all that heat that is building up in the EGR cooler which will cook it. Ummm, I don't think the amount of heat in a "turned off" EGR cooler is all that significant. With no exhaust flow through the cooler, there will be very little heat transfer from the exhaust to the cooler versus the heat transfer with the EGR valve wide open. Remember the really quick test to see if a gas burner EGR valve was stuck open? Bump your hand against the EGR tube and if it's hot, the EGR valve is open. But a cooler tube meant that the EGR valve was closed. Just my two cents.... As for the the efficacy of installing the plug in the y-pipe versus just disabiling the EGR valve, I donno.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 i believe he's talking about the soot and heat build up in the egr cooler itself if you were to just shut off the egr valve.. i could only think of what that would look like after a couple thousand miles.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 On the topic of emissions, if I am not mistaken the egr system in an oil burner also performs the same duty as one in a gas motor, reduction of Nox, correct? Wouldn't restricting or stopping egr operation increase nox emissions? Is it not the Nox and PM regulations that made ford and IH produce the 6.0 and now the 6.4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 did you miss the last 2 pages of this topic?? i believe emissions is the only thing that stopped ford from producing the 7.3.. and now with all the emissions on a 6.0 that a 6.4 has it cant take it so they had to up the power and stroke it to a 6.4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 No, I did not miss the last few pages, I just wanted to bring up the fact that although you may not see smoke, there are other emissions that WILL be increased. The smoke is just PM, there is also the usual CO, HC's and Nox to think about not to mention CO2 that my home state will be regulating here in a few years if they get their way. If you disable the egr system you WILL increase the NOX outside of the legal limits. If they could get these things to pass without EGR or with less flow you better bet your a** they would. If they could get more power with minimal additional cost and still meet the emission standards and keep the level of durability they expect why wouldn't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Well... Ford didn't produce the 7.3... but it was certainly emissions that killed it as far as light duty use was concerned... The motor was at the end of it's rope and it was more feasable to design a whole new engine than to re-engineer the existing engine. Add that the 6.0 was only ever designed to be a stop-gap engine... designed to appease clean air regs until technology caught up.... From some appearances, the 6.4 just may be another stop-gap development.... designed primarily to buy some time for current technology to mature.... But both Jay and I are asking about tailpipe emissions.... "smoke" is only a small part of those emissions and is hardly a good indication of anything when the real killers are colourless and (usually) odourless. Untold thousands of dollars (possibly millions) have gone in to the development of EGR systems for diesel engines. If clean air specs don't require these systems, all of that would be cash in the manufacturers pocket... The system wouldn't have been developed and the pieces wouldn't be fitted to the truck. What is needed is some empirical data about what is coming out of the pipe.... Is defeating the EGR producing anything in excess of what most responsible adults are trying to comply with? I have no problem with some guy pumping up an occasional use vehicle (most of these that I see are on the road for less than 20 hours a year - my lawn mower likely does as much or more environmental damage in the same period). To defeat any emissions system so that some bozo can save a couple of bucks at the pump island... I can't find the words.... As professional technicians, we have accepted some of the responsibilty of ensuring that our customers vehicles comply with applicable emissions requirements.... We can't be "police" but we should at least have some sort of concience..... this is OUR air these guys are fouling. Before I get branded as a tree hugger, let me say that I am smart enough to realize that zero pollution is an impossible dream.... But it is vitally important that each and every one of us does what we can to reduce the footprint we leave behind.... Someone once said "we don't own this planet... we are borrowing it..... from our grandchildren". If defeating an emissions device is such a good idea, why was it there to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I have somewhat of a related question as far as calibrations are concerned... Ford spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop a new flash and get EPA approval... do the tuner companies have to follow the same guidelines, or are they just in it for the buck? I think I can guess the answer... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I was going to ask the same question. I had a friend who worked for Kia years ago and told me it took months for them to get service fix calibrations out to the US dealers due to the regulation and cost involved in certifing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Some of my customers over the years had the product information/user manuals for their performance devices in the truck. I did read a few and all of them had a bold type disclaimer on the first page. The devices were intended for "off road use only." This brings me to the under hood label on these diesel trucks that states "... unless the device is an EPA certified emissions product under the clean air act , section 207 and CFR 85.2112 - 85.2122." So if a device is not EPA certified then it does not meet emissions standards as required by law... probably because they don't or less likely, the manufacturer couldn't be bothered or afford the cost of doing so. Just label it "for off road use only" and your ass is covered! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 So if a device is not EPA certified then it does not meet emissions standards as required by law. Just label it "for off road use only" and your ass is covered! I remember reading about a company installing such devices that was still prosecuted by the EPA even though a disclaimer was signed. It was something about "knowing it was to be used on-road" even though the disclaimer said off-road. I know Josh isn't going to like what I have to say anyway. I strongly recommend in my classes that NO performance modifications be made to any truck, and spend 30+ minutes talking about why. If you need more power, you bought the wrong truck, it's as simple as that. Also, explain to me why emission laws should apply to some people and not others? That would be like speed limits or murder laws only applying to part of the population. It simply doesn't make sense. There's a reason for these laws (emissions included) and nobody should be exempt. None of my vehicles have been modified and I see no reason to. I get behind these modified trucks in traffic, they stand on the throttle, and I can't see the traffic ahead because there is so much black smoke. I'm sure just ONE of these trucks makes more pollution than hundreds of stock trucks. These guys think they're so hot, and I think they're a*** Just my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 AMEN TO THAT BRUCE /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif I've seen so many problems caused by aftermarket performance devices that I just categorically despise them. Anytime I see evidence of power improvement modifications, I immediately inform my service manager and push the issue until they call in our field service engineer to void the warranty. THERE'S A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I remember reading about a company installing such devices that was still prosecuted by the EPA even though a disclaimer was signed. It was something about "knowing it was to be used on-road" even though the disclaimer said off-road. Interesting. So to expand on this, when Johnny plugs in his Edge Juice to his 2007 F350 and gets caught by a roadside inspection for excessive smoke, who is to blame? Who will be prosecuted, Johnny, Edge or the guy who installed it? (probably Johnny did it himself) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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