DamageINC Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 So this truck is just haunting me. '00 Expedition, 5.4, launched a spark plug into orbit. Gave the customer the usual options, as well as the newer approved Lock 'n Stitch insert (which is an extremely well engineered repair). After a WEEK of head scratching, the Customer decided to go with the insert for the plug. So, after talking back and forth, letting them know the dangers of doing the repair in-vehicle and how we'd rather remove the head for access and lack of metal contamination, they still insisted on the in-vehicle repair because it's cheaper. So, cylinder 2. The plug angles back toward the firewall, but it's still BARELY possible to get all your tools into the plug bore and perform the repair. Except for the last step. CAll the customer and let them know that, now being 90% finished with the job, we cannot lock the insert into place without further access to the engine, requiring "engine removal" (body removal). They go flying off the handle. Finally I was just told to slam a plug in the insert and ship it if it runs fine, the customer is wililng ot take the chance on the insert coming loose. Put the plug in, start it up - runs rough. Power balance shows cyl 3 dead. WTF?? I didn't touch #3... Turns out it needs a coil. There's another $100 the customer didn't see coming (and they were already furious about the $400 they spent on the labor, insert, new plug and coil for #2). Whatever, put the coil in, fix the problem, runs fine. Get in, go to back the truck out of the stall.. ..I can't. Parking brake shoes just decided to seize COMPLETELY. This thing *will* not move out of the bay. I never once touched the parking brake, so I really don't know how it happened... the truck was towed in. Gotta call the customer up and tell them that they need parking brake shoes and backing plates now too. I'm sure this will go over like a lead balloon. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 So this truck is just haunting me. '00 Expedition, 5.4, launched a spark plug into orbit. Gave the customer the usual options, as well as the newer approved Lock 'n Stitch insert (which is an extremely well engineered repair). After a WEEK of head scratching, the Customer decided to go with the insert for the plug. So, after talking back and forth, letting them know the dangers of doing the repair in-vehicle and how we'd rather remove the head for access and lack of metal contamination, they still insisted on the in-vehicle repair because it's cheaper. So, cylinder 2. The plug angles back toward the firewall, but it's still BARELY possible to get all your tools into the plug bore and perform the repair. Except for the last step. CAll the customer and let them know that, now being 90% finished with the job, we cannot lock the insert into place without further access to the engine, requiring "engine removal" (body removal). They go flying off the handle. Finally I was just told to slam a plug in the insert and ship it if it runs fine, the customer is wililng ot take the chance on the insert coming loose. Put the plug in, start it up - runs rough. Power balance shows cyl 3 dead. WTF?? I didn't touch #3... Turns out it needs a coil. There's another $100 the customer didn't see coming (and they were already furious about the $400 they spent on the labor, insert, new plug and coil for #2). Whatever, put the coil in, fix the problem, runs fine. Get in, go to back the truck out of the stall.. ..I can't. Parking brake shoes just decided to seize COMPLETELY. This thing *will* not move out of the bay. I never once touched the parking brake, so I really don't know how it happened... the truck was towed in. Gotta call the customer up and tell them that they need parking brake shoes and backing plates now too. I'm sure this will go over like a lead balloon. Dave This stuff wil drive you nuts IF you let it. You didn't break it. Figure out a way to put it out on the lot and let er' sit...some customers CAN"T be made happy. YOU need to make a living so it has to go OUT. Make the conversation happen between the SA/SM & customer. It really isn't YOUR problem IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Dave, the gas shop has done a ton of inserts when the sparkplug blows out, never told them needed body removal....or engine removal..... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Is your shop using the Lock 'n Stitch inserts??? Because there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to access cylinders 3 and 4 in-vehicle to perform this repair on an older body-style F-150/Expedition platform. Cylinder 2 is barely achieveable, but even then the final step for drilling the 1/16" hole in between the insert and the head to lock the insert in place is, although possible on paper, still about as likely as throwing a key directly into a lock from 20 feet away. Using crappy Time-serts and Heli-coils will do nothing but cause problems and that's why we don't use those at all. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I beg to differ on the timesert kits. I've used a ton of them over the years, and have never had a failure. I think it's a well designed kit that makes for an effective repair. And, although it is tight on cylinders 3 and 4, it is possible without jumping through too many hoops.... I have not had the pleasure of using the lock and stitch kit yet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 The problem with timeserts is not the issue of whether or not they'll come loose and fail, but rather the heat-transfer properties associated with the repair. The thermal expansion properties of aluminum and the metal that the timeserts are made of are much much different, and this utimately results in the spark plug overheating because it can't effectively transfer the heat from itself to the cylinder head anymore. This results in the spark plug overheating and causing pre-ignition and knock issues, which could obviously lead to severe engine damage if it goes on unaddressed. The Lock 'n Stitch kit is actually a very well engineered, heavy-duty repair, which is actually STRONGER than the initial casting by itself once properly installed. It's certainly a pain in the ass, but it's an excellent repair that is a much cheaper and still effective alternative to cylinder head repair, if you ask me. But the length of the tools and accuracy of some of the procedures require head removal or at least body removal to access some of the cylinders. Cylinder 1 is the only one on the right bank that could actually be repaired completely in-vehicle, although it does leave A LOT of metal in the cylinder, regardless of how careful you are with the repair. I've yet to do it on the left bank, but I'd imagine cylinder 8 and probably 7 are not doable. Removing the problem head and installing inserts into every plug bore will save tons of cash and eliminate the chance for the problem to return later on that same head. You could upsell the other bank as well, if you chose to. Overall, it saves roughly $1,500-1,800 over head replacement. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Ok, you are thinking WAYYYYYY into this. Every single one out of warranty got a timesert. We have not had one failure and we use normal ones from carquest. You tell the customer... "you have 2 options for this repair a. timesert, b. or a head... We have had sucess with the heli-coil, but it is not a Ford approved repair so we cannot be held liable if it fails." 10 out of 10 will do the heli-coil. I haven't heard of one failure yet using one. I think some thought had to go into "heat transfer" and all the mumbo jumbo ure talkin bout. It comes down to this.... You tell the customer which choice they want. I can't count how many times ive worked on a truck and something else goes wrong. Be up-front and honest...it's not ure fault unless the customer said "check my e-brakes they're sticking" I dislike ure dealerships policies Dave ( from our talks ) seem's like all they want to do is cover their own asses and the customers leaving you guys out to dry.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron_Johnson Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I'm not so sure I buy the heat transfer argument either....does it affect it? probably....does it affect it enough to worry about? probably not. Most customers will opt for the cheapest repair possible anyhow. Is anyone using the inserts MAC tools sell? These are the only ones I have used. How do they compare to the others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 We've done about 3 or four with the MAC inserts... no problems that I'm aware of... We will be switching to the Lock n stitch repairs when the MAC inserts run out... FWIW... we haven't had any of these repairs in service long enough to require spark plug removal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I feel for ya, Dave... but like lew says... there's just no pleasing some people... You do the best you can.... and leave it at that... (teflon shoulders helps). We refuse to perform repairs that we don't feel comfortable with ... and if you can't get in there comfortable with the tools you need to... you do what you need to. Some customers wont accept this.... I invite them to shop around before they make their decision.... Unfortunately, by this time they are belligerant with every shop they talk to and we wind up stuck with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Quote: although possible on paper, still about as likely as throwing a key directly into a lock from 20 feet away. Good to see you haven't lost your sense of humor during all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 I'd be very interested to see what the tips of these spark plugs in steel inserts look like in relation to the surrounding plugs after a few thousand miles of operation. I suppose whether or not you "buy" the information, the fact is that it's still a fact. Steel inserts expand almost 3 times slower than the aluminum around it. So as the head heats up, the aluminum expands 3 times (it's actually like 2.8 or something) faster than the steel insert within it, and thus loses much of it's metal-to-metal contact with the insert which is obviously going to severely affect the insert's ability to transfer the heat from the plug, to the head itself. You've got to remember that the spark plug is firing on the power stroke 25 times per second at 3000 rpm, which is very frequently seen under normal accelleration events from stops and passing manuvers, where engine load is at it's highest and resulting in the highest cylinder temperatures. 25 times per second. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but irrespective - that is NOT a lot of time for the plug to cool down between firing events. This heat is transferred to the insert, which is no longer effectively able to move the heat to the head, and just soaks the plug with it's own heat again. Cases of the plug tips literally glowing within the cylinder have been found and that is obviously a guaranteed preiginition source. You could argue that a colder spark plug in the given cylinder would be the solution, but this would also likely result in a misfire on cold starts and premature fouling of that particular plug in the cylinder because the entire cylinder bank is controlled evenly as far as fuel distribution goes, not like a modern Diesel where each cylinder can be independantly "tuned" on the fly. I know it may sound trivial, but it's trivial little things that cause thousands of dollars of damage in the long run. Just look at the 6.0! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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