Service Menus and Breakdowns

[Keith Browning]

I would love to hear how your dealer presents services to your customers. At our dealer we are going to revamp our diesel/truck service menus and labor descriptions. I am thinking along the lines of breaking away from the standard issue 5k, 20k 15k etc in favor of a more flexible system to allow tailoring servicing and up sell to the vehicle and to the customers needs. Who is doing something different?

[Bruce Amacker]

Many of our fleets are really busy in the warm months and slow in the cold months. We groom them to bring the trucks in during the winter and have us go over the truck thoroughly to prevent breakdown during the busy season. This has worked incredibly well for us and has reduced breakdowns and tows to only a few a year overall. We (Mike, who bought my shop) still have several fleet accounts I originally sold in the 80's due to the low breakdown rate they have. It's not the repair bill that the fleets hate, it's the unexpected breakdowns which KILL them in the busy season. Add-ons are

where the money is- fixing lights, adjusting the clutch,

etc, as a basic LOF is a break-even gig without them. We

get about 1.5 hrs. for basic and 12-14 hrs. for a MD #3

P.M. depending on the kind of chassis and engine. The

add-ons on a #3 are a great money maker. Average RO on a #3 is probably $4K.

 

 

LOF: every 5-6000 miles, depending on the engine.

 

Annual (also called #3PM, C Level PM):

 

Basic LOF includes checking trans, diff, all lights, tire

pressures, coolant level and PH, brake fluid, P.S., belt

tension and condition, clutch adj, lube sticker. All items

are initialed by the tech on the job sheet.

 

#3 P.M. Checklist for Truck #________

Mileage________________

 

1. Complete chassis inspection. Check tierods for play,

check kingpins for wear and play. Check kingpin thrust

bearings for deterioration, check spring hangers and

shackles for wear.

 

2. Complete driveline inspection. Check

u-joints, transmission rear bearing and pinion bearing for

looseness and leaks.

 

3. Complete brake inspection-

Hydraulic brake equipped: Remove all wheels, remove all

calipers, clean and lube caliper slides, checking pads for

rust separation and uneven wear. Install factory shims if

calipers are loose. Air brake equipped: Inspect condition

of linings, drums, slack adjusters, and seals. Adjust

brakes if necessary.

 

4. Check all brake lines for proper

mounting, rub-through, and excessive corrosion. Check all

brake hoses for dry rot cracks, bubbles, rotted crimps on

fittings.

 

5. Minor engine tune-up. Adjust valves, test

glowplugs when present. If equipped with late model

electronic controlled engine, perform computer evaluation

with factory diagnostic equipment. Pop test injectors for

pressure and spray pattern. All diagnostics done by ASE

Certified Auto/Truck Master Technicians with L1 and L2.

 

6.

Replace water filter.

 

7. Replace wiper blades.

 

8. Cooling

system inspection, including pressure test and tighten all

hose clamps. Check water pump bearing for looseness and

seepage.

 

9. Check belts for tension and cracking.

 

10.

Complete chassis lubrication. If any fittings do not take/purge grease properly, take measures to correct this.

 

11. Check starter draw, it

should be 450-500 amps, 750 maximum. (mid range diesel)

 

12.

Check alternator amperage and voltage output and

oscilloscope test diodes.

 

13. Remove battery cables and

individually load test batteries. Clean connections if

corroded. Protect with anti-corrosive coating.

 

14. Check

and repair all exterior signal and clearance lights.

 

15.

Check body clamps for strength.

 

16. Check the mounting of

all hazardous material placards. (if equipped)

 

17. Replace

power steering filter and change fluid if burned or

discolored.

 

18. Change oil in transmission and

differential, straining oil as it drains, looking for

abnormal metal particles. Watch for discoloration in oil

(water contamination).

 

19. D.O.T. inspection and paperwork.

 

 

20. Test drive truck to evaluate roadworthyness.

 

21. Check

chlorine tank mounts for strength. Check floor of bed for

strength and rot. (as required)

 

21. Visually inspect

turbocharger for oil or exhaust leaks. Inspect charge air

cooler for rotted tubes and proper mounting (if equipped).

 

 

22. Lube throttle linkage pivots and shutoff cable with

Tef-Gel (if equipped).

 

23. Check PTO cables for smooth

operation and wipe grease on exposed cable ends (if

equipped).

 

24. Check “filter minder” on air cleaner for

restriction, and replace filter if restricted. (many diesel

air filters are designed for 100,000 highway miles)

 

25.

Visually inspect harmonic balancer for looseness or leaks.

(silicone fluid filled)

 

24. Bring to attention anything

that will not make it through the coming busy season.

 

Stake body trucks- 21. Check chlorine tank mounts for

strength. Check floor of bed for strength and rot.

 

Van body

(box) trucks- 22. Rear rollup door- check thoroughly for

bad rollers, hinges, broken tracks, frayed cables, loose

bolts, etc. Lube well, including upper regulator bearings.

 

 

23. Service power tailgate. Check electrical connections

for corrosion, and hydraulic oil level and possible water

contamination.

 

 

 

 

Is that enough for you?

 

 

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[mchan68]

Keith, I was waiting for you to start a thread like this. Maybe some of you will chime in.

 

I'm actually curious myself. What do guys charge for the following?:

 

DIT diag. This means just hooking up IDS and running some standard KOEO/KOER tests. Does your shop charge the same as an EEC diag for a gas engine?

 

Air filters for 7.3L/6.0L E or F series?

 

Fuel filters for 7.3L/6.0L E or F series?

 

Injector(s) for 7.3L/6.0L E or F series?

 

EGR/Oil coolers for 6.0L E or F series?

 

Reflash PCM

 

Turbo R & R and cleaning/replacement for 6.0L

 

What do you guys quote for labour for the above? I've been pretty much just doubling the SLTS times to uses as my own personal guideline when quoting retail repairs, since my boss refuses to purchase any updated Mitchell or Chilton manual. This plus the fact that every tech in our shop is paid the same hourly rate, regardless of specialty achieved.

[Bruce Amacker]

For anybody that responds to this, please use time or hours as an answer. It is highly illegal for competing shops to discuss pricing policies using dollars.

 

 

 

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[mchan68]

For anybody that responds to this, please use time or hours as an answer. It is highly illegal for competing shops to discuss pricing policies using dollars.

 

That's what I was looking for as an answer. What YOU get paid in labour hours, NOT the dollar amount charged to the customer.

[Tony302600]

We have the Powerstroke light up menu sign that Ford sent us. Shows every service and price for SD's. We have a drain and fill w/ the change of the external filter on torqshifts. We dont do the BG EGR "flush" labor time and price for Brake inspections on high mileage 450-550's is still being fought with me and the service writer after a good amount of trucks taking a half-a-day to break therear wheels loose.

[GregH]

DIT diag. This means just hooking up IDS and running some standard KOEO/KOER tests. Does your shop charge the same as an EEC diag for a gas engine?

 

2.0 hours for diesel diag, meaning the full sheet if necessary. Compare that to 1.5 for gas.

 

Air filters for 7.3L/6.0L E or F series?

 

No charge for 7.3L air filters, .5 for 6.0L E or F

 

Fuel filters for 7.3L/6.0L E or F series?

 

.5 for 7.3L, 1.0 for 6.0L

 

Injector(s) for 7.3L/6.0L E or F series?

 

4.0 for up to 4 per side, 7.3L or 6.0L. 8.0 per side for E series

 

EGR/Oil coolers for 6.0L E or F series?

 

8.0 for either one or both on F. Haven't had the pleasure on an E for customer pay time.

 

Reflash PCM

 

1.0

 

Turbo R & R and cleaning/replacement for 6.0L

 

5.0 R&I, additional 1.0 to clean. This includes the PIA '03 models.

 

How about 6.0L head gasket times? We've been quoting 25 hours...

[Keith Browning]

All good posts, but I was looking more at servicing, preventative maintenance services.We currently use menu service packages that are out dated in that they simply cover a "truck" for a given mileage interval. For example, a 5K service is an LOF and a QCRC inspection. A 15K service is an LOF, tire rotation and balance, fuel filters, air filter, tune-up-cap, rotor-wires. This is not only outdated but it is too generic. Whats more is those descriptions are what prints out on our repair orders and invoices! Not good.

 

So I am thinking of breaking this up into three different categories; cars and gas trucks, LD diesel trucks and MD diesel trucks. Each category would have three levels of base services. For example, light duty diesel trucks:

• LEVEL 1 Service = LOF, drain water separator and perform a QCRC.
• LEVEL 2 Service = LOF, drain water separator, replace fuel filters and perform a QCRC.
• LEVEL 3 Service = LOF, drain water separator, replace fuel filters rotate tires and perform a QCRC.
• Add-on items dependent on mileage or as needed indicated by the QCRC (because no two trucks and customers are the same)
• replace air filter
• service batteries
• service cooling system
• service transfer case
• drive axle service

Now, medium duty trucks could actually use the same service break down but use different operation codes to adjust for different labor times and parts costs. For those of you who don't know what a QCRC is, it is a "Quality Care Report Card" which is a complete vehicle inspection and check list. See the attachment for a copy.

[mchan68]

THANK YOU. That's what I was looking for. I just had a recent 6.0L come in for a retail repair, and the numbers you listed were pretty close to what I had in mind. I suppose I could ask what some of you guys would charge RETAIL for an engine harness, and the ICP sensors on HPOP mounted models (read '03). 8.0 hours for EITHER EGR cooler or BOTH? To me, the oil cooler would be the much harder more time consuming job.

[mchan68]

What about what you charge for trucks coming in with gasoline? I know that we are SUPPOSED to quote all fuel system component replacement, and void the customer's warranty. But I also realize that, that does not happen all the time.

[DwayneGorniak]

0.7 for one fuel filter

0.8 for two fuel filters

0.5 for a battery

0.3 for second battery

1.0 for coolant flush on gas pot with flush machine

1.5 for coolant flush on diesel with flush machine

0.5 for t-case

1.0 for diff fluids

0.3 for sicko air filter unless we have it off for other repairs (all other air filters are free labour)

1.0 for brake inspection

1.5 for brake inspection on dual rear wheel truck

 

Our menu prices at our dealership change the labour rate for each type of service. Example: accessory labour rate (Mud flaps, running boards, chrome sh!t, etc.) is less than mechanical labour and mechanical labour is less than diagnostic labour.

 

It is my belief that this is a better system than cutting technicians throats on labour when it comes to menu pricing. I have seen the greedy dark side of dealerships that love to cut labour time a starve techs. No thanx, been there done that. Seen lots of turnaround in techs at those kinda places. Just my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif again.

[Keith Browning]

Our menu prices at our dealership change the labor rate for each type of service. Example: accessory labor rate (Mud flaps, running boards, chrome sh!t, etc.) is less than mechanical labor and mechanical labor is less than diagnostic labor.

 

It is my belief that this is a better system than cutting technicians throats on labor when it comes to menu pricing. I have seen the greedy dark side of dealerships that love to cut labor time a starve techs. No thanks, been there done that. Seen lots of turnaround in techs at those kinda places. Just my again.

Dwayne, I agree with you and our store uses a varying labor rate as well. When it comes to the service packages or levels as I labeled them, I think the labor should be more for a truck than a car and so forth. For instance, disconnecting and testing two diesel batteries takes longer than a Taurus. This is another reason I want to see a different breakdown so that the services pay the tech properly and the customer pays an appropriate fee.

[GregH]

For the trucks with gasoline in them, they've been rolled to the other tech in the shop - they like to keep me covered with heavy 6.0L warranty shit.

 

He's been popping customers 2.0 hours to drain the tank, plus the regular 1.0 for a pair of fuel filters. He uses a fused jumper to power the fuel pump, disconnects the outlet line from the HFCM, connects a long hose to the HFCM, and routes the hose to the waste oil collection tank. Then he walks away for a while...

 

Yeah, I know... "let me count the ways"

[mchan68]

For the trucks with gasoline in them, they've been rolled to the other tech in the shop - they like to keep me covered with heavy 6.0L warranty shit.

 

He's been popping customers 2.0 hours to drain the tank, plus the regular 1.0 for a pair of fuel filters. He uses a fused jumper to power the fuel pump, disconnects the outlet line from the HFCM, connects a long hose to the HFCM, and routes the hose to the waste oil collection tank. Then he walks away for a while...

 

Yeah, I know... "let me count the ways"

 

 

I agree with the method described, but WHY should a RETAIL job go to ANOTHER tech in the shop while YOU get stuck with warranty 6.0L stuff? What happens if he gets "stuck"? Are YOU required to "help" him? Sorry to hijack the thread, Keith.

[GregH]

I appreciate the defense, but I really don't need it.

 

This is about the only rub I have in this shop - to be honest, if there was nothing wrong here, I'd be really worried.

 

I make my check every week. The wife has perfume, the kid has shoes, and I haven't missed any meals. I'm good.

[ktmlew]

I appreciate the defense, but I really don't need it.

 

This is about the only rub I have in this shop - to be honest, if there was nothing wrong here, I'd be really worried.

 

I make my check every week. The wife has perfume, the kid has shoes, and I haven't missed any meals. I'm good.

 

 

At some point you have to look at your W-2 and say..."that ain't too bad"...how you got it can/should be irelevant? Would "you" like doing flushes and brakes all day long and lot learning anything? As long as the numbers work out to pay your expenses I guess it doesn't matter? I had to take 2 years off to get my head straight on this.

 

I'm doing an interiew tomorrow to get back in the dealership. It's going to be tough physically & mentally but I have to do it. I WANT to do it. There is definitely a satisfaction in fixing vehicles at the dealer level that you can't get anywhere else IMO!

 

Sorry for the hyjack... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif

[Jim Warman]

I kinda figured that Lew wouldn't be able to stay away....

 

I can't be much help with menu pricing... Many of our prices charge the customer an amount that doesn't really reflect what a tech get's paid....

 

A Sooper Doody alignment is going to cost the customer in steps... Base alignment (caster sweep plus toe and clear vision adjust) pays tech 1.3 but the customer cost is less than one hour. Adjust caster/camber (per side) adds 1.0 to the techs pay. A "full meal deal" (base align plus caster/camber X2) will pay 3.3 hours but get billed at barely more than 1.5 (plus slugs).

 

The idea is to remain competetive (within reason) with independants and the big bozes while paying the tech what he deserves for the job... This can be a very fine line to tread as we look at what keeps techs happy and what is profitable for the store.

 

The rub... we all need to cultivate the retail work we have.. and we all need to attract more retail work.... At some point and on some labour ops, the store is going to have to bend a little.

 

We are the dealer... we hjave tools and knowledge (or should have) that the "other guys" don't.... we charge more and our customers deserve more.... But for LOFs and other maintenance operations, we can't be busy pricing ourselves out of the market...

 

But when it comes to diag.... it can get gnarly.... What can we charge for diag time? Give an idiot a good scan tool and you still have an idiot. Give a good man a good scan tool and he can still get side tracked (look at my P2563 thread - not that I consider myself "good"..... but I try to make myself believe I'm not an idiot, either...).

 

Our best techs should be doing the diag.... our not so best techs should be doing the grunt work.. problem being that these will overlap.... and I don't know of anyone that likes to finish what someone else has started.

 

So... for diag, menu pricing can be "make or break". We know that we should be able to spin circles around independants. But we don't want to price ourselves out of the running.

 

And this is where we should get together and have some input. Every PPT ends with us replacing something expensive if we take it right to the end. Following the PPT has us do tests that we wouldn't normally do if our heads are screwed on right... but, it is the factory manual that will be the model we will be judged by.

 

If I'm smart enough to load test all the powers and grounds to a module instead of farting around testing the way the PPT tells me, should I be penalized or rewarded? (Example to follow). Diag has become a specialized area... whether it is an automatic engagement concern, oil consumption or any other of dozens of symptoms. My local experience shows that diagnosticians are hard to find. Should diag time cost more? Yes... but if we are gong to do that, we need the right guy doing it...

 

The follow up.... The PPTs have us using a voltmeter to test open circuit voltage on a B+ wire... what a crock.... The same PPT has us testing resistance to a ground.... Try this.... unplug the module.... insert a load between the B+ and the ground. A headlight works pretty good. If the headlight doesn't come on, volt drop the power side and the ground side.

 

Something I'm going to try using a 1 ohm, 10 watt resistor. Install your resistor in the circuit as the "load". Snap your low amp probe around the resistor. Depending on B+, you should see between 11 and 14 amps. Don't have a low current probe? Put your "load" in series with a length of wire coiled 10 times. Snap your AVR probe around part of the coil so that the wire passes through the probe 10 times (without doubling back on itself). Divide your reading by 10. Don't have an amp probe? Install the resistor and perform proper volt drop testing.

 

Kieth... if this is inappropriate here, do something, I guess....

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Jim I will jump in here as always a little long winded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif

But we enjoy it anyways!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

 

Lets start with the almighty LOF... LOSER for parts.

Sold at cost or cost plus...not alot...And labor/labour sucks we all lose!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smhair.gif

 

This service is and always has been a lost leader just to get the trucks in our shops...

 

Who do they give these to if there is not a problem with the trucks(mind you not always) the hourly grease monkey that they hired to get them in the door. Does he know what to look for to upsell the services that need to be done, or just do the pm and out the door the customers goes with,.. oh lets say a pinion seal leak, or a axle seal or whatever else we all would look for on these trucks???

 

 

Now mind you we all talk about the problems that we encounter everyday, but what about the "oil change specials" that every dealer advertises just to get them in the door. I know that they also want the customer to migrate up to the sales floor to try to get another sale but most don't buy.

 

Sorry got off track a little, my point is that all of us that work our asses off to get the job done don't always see the fruits of our labor/labour, some do appreciate it but most don't. It takes alot of knowledge whether it be learned or found because we asked questions still takes time and effort, Effort we don't have to, but do because we all have a common goal... FIX THE DAM TRUCK !!!!

 

My biggest bitch with most of the dealers I have worked in, Is that parts can discount all the way down to cost. The service advisors or Service monger don't discount that deep...Don't get me wrong but we have labor/labour rates @ $90.00 a hourish, I know that you guys don't make anywhere close to that so why doesn't service discount to the parts level? Why should parts have to take in the ass all the time? The advisors or Managers may cut your time(which isn't right and sucks you guys are the ones /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gifbeating your friggin heads against the walls) but I'll bet they aren't cutting back on the rate, any takers???

 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone here but check out whats going on in your shop and see...

 

I believe in menu pricing to a point but come on now, If was that easy we wouldn't be here doing what we do with each other trying to get info out to make things a little easier on all of us, lets face it if it wasn't for Keith (by the way change your avatar)starting this site we wouldn't be here today!!!

 

Just my 2 cents /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

 

This is scary I just felt like Jim /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/poke.gif

 

By the LEW good luck on the interview!!!

[Jim Warman]

Larry, you hit the nail on the head.... I don't think that there are many stores out there that haven't gotten into the LOF with a multipoint inspection with the idea that they are going to upsell work...

 

But soon, the idea get's forgotten... "Oh my Gawd... look at all these oil changes in the holding pattern... we better hire a "loob teck".". And then the whole great scheme is lost... the whole "raison d'etre" is forgotten.... and we are now giving away free oil and filters... except when someone with some common sense has one along with the rest of his RO.

 

FWIW... sounding like Jim isn't such a bad thing now, is it.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

On edit.... friggin' typos....

 

Always proof read your post to be sure left something out.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Alright Jim what did I fudge up, I don't see it????

 

Always proof read your post to be sure left something out.

[Jim Warman]

I fudged up... but I caught it and fixed it....

 

Read my last line carefully (one of that flat rate reading).

 

And remember, no matter how hard you try, you can't end a sentence with the word "the".