2008 F750/C7-CAT Check Engine Light

[Keith Browning]

I have a few 2008 F750's with check engine light concerns that I have no clue how to correct and there is no help available to me... I also cant access CAT today to use the manuals...

 

Codes:

• 231-14 transmission data link derate
• 310-0 UN-DEFINED

Cat said it is an Allison problem, Allison said it is a Ford problem and now it has come full circle and is now my problem again. I do know that some data like vehicle speed is networked through the GEM from the Allison module to the CAT module. The GEM has no codes and passes testing. Anybody?

 

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[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Keith we did see some of the trans harness issues with the F650-F750's. We also seen connector issues at the trans with the backup lamp switch.

[Keith Browning]

Larry, these are all brand spanking new direct from sunny Mexico.

[OHNO60]

keith did you plug in allison doc? or cat et? seen issues with datalink or j1939 not programmed on.

[Keith Browning]

Keith did you plug in Allison doc? or cat et? seen issues with data link or j1939 not programmed on.

I have ET and the truck does require both diagnostic connectors be connected but I don't have a J1939 connector for CAT. This is why I need to get into the CAT website so I can read up on this... soon as I get my password reset. Oops! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif I have no access to anything Allison.

[OHNO60]

https://sis.cat.com/sisweb/servlet/cat.cis.sis.PController.CSSISTechDocServlet

 

try this keith

[Keith Browning]

Requires log-on. I'll get my password reset tomorrow.

[Bruce Amacker]

How fast do these codes set? Anthony had a weird one lately where the J1939 data link between the Allison ECU and the DT466 ECM was causing a conflict. He unplugged the J1939 at the tranny and everything worked fine over the J1708.

 

 

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[Keith Browning]

Bruce, the codes set usually within the first drive I assume because that is how quickly the MIL comes back on. the 310 code is nothing to be concerned with, I was told that is a DPF regen count code or something like that. By the way, these trucks DO have a regen bypass switch under the dash taped up to the harness.

 

A lot has gone down on this one over the last week including me getting the flu. I now have managers and engineers involved from all three manufacturers with this truck now due to go to a Kenworth dealer in Elizabeth, the closest place my FSE could find that was both a CAT and Allison certified dealer and repair facility. He will be going with the truck personally today. I wish them luck and eagerly await the resolution.

 

Basically, the CAT ECU us not properly inhaling the vehicle speed data through the J1939 network... according to the code. I cannot access the Allison control module to verify the output parameters. On this truck, this vehicle speed data is supplied to the GEM via hard wire and is then supplied to the CAT ECM through the J1939 network. The speedo works, the cluster passes electrical testing as does the network.

 

I spent most of Thursday on the phone with a Ford engineer and a Caterpillar engineer (extremely helpful and professional) trying different parameter configurations and types including turning off the vehicle speed data altogether. Oh, we switched it from revs/mile to pulses/mile, performing the math on both using tire size, axle ratio and tailshaft speed sensor ring tooth count... only made matters worse.

 

The last thing I did was to verify all of the parameters were properly programmed at the factory, I was given the production sheet for the electrical programming for all modules on the truck. I also verified the GEM axle size ant tire ratio settings. The ONLY discrepancy I can find is with the tire rotations per mile spec. Ford's sheet and all of the modules are set to 496 revs/mile. The Hotline engineers data, our math and the scan tool all list a Michelin XL 11R22.5 tire as 500 revs per mile for a difference of 4 revolutions per mile. Significant? Probably not. I wish them luck, I have two or three more in the lot with the same concern. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[Aaron_Johnson]

By the way, these trucks DO have a regen bypass switch under the dash taped up to the harness.

Where might this switch be located? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif By "bypass" switch do you mean a manual regen switch like Detroit and Mercedes have? I hope so, that might end my problems with our F-750.

[Keith Browning]

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

By the way, these trucks DO have a regen bypass switch under the dash taped up to the harness.

Where might this switch be located? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif By "bypass" switch do you mean a manual regen switch like Detroit and Mercedes have? I hope so, that might end my problems with our F-750.

I don't remember the exact name and function CAT called it from my training but it is involved with regen. I think it was supposed to be an override to prevent a regen event during unfavorable conditions. I DO remember being told that Ford and GM trucks would be built without the switch... they didn't say that they were just going to tape them up behind the diagnostic connector. I was looking in the wiring diagram but ford does not show much CAT stuff beyond anything that is network or vehicle power related... I will check the CAT manual next time I have one in the shop to view.

[Keith Browning]

Figured out what that switch is. Its a self test switch for the Bendix ABS system on trucks with air brakes. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif It makes sense that if they aren't going to USE the bypass switch they aren't going to put one in. Apparently most of the larger truck manufacturers see a need for a bypass as you probably don't want these things lighting off in terminals, loading docks and places of the like. Ford and GMC apparently have a different opinion.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

DOH!!! I should have known better and asked if it had air brakes.

[HeuiTim]

Keith is right about the 310 code, just signifies a successful regen, its a good code.

Tim

[Keith Browning]

So the saga continues. Thought I would update this now because things have gotten significantly worse: Cat is willing to help, but they really don't think it is a CAT problem, Ford is clueless and Allison is offering no help. The customer is irate and it is now a legal matter. To add to the fire, I have confirmed 4 more trucks in our inventory with the same problem and now, finally, reports of another truck in St.Louis. This has people high up involved now.

 

I replaced the harness between the firewall bulkhead connector and the CAT ECM - what a bitch! Cleared the logged codes and we have put at least 150 miles on the truck... so far so good. I checked for the code's return.

 

I am now on to the next truck that also has several particulate filter temperature and pressure sensor circuit codes. Mind you, these are all logged DTC's and never show as active codes. Again, we are focused on the harness. Between the EVTM and access to CAT SIS WEB I have been able to piece together the wiring. Why cant Ford do that?

[HeuiTim]

Well Keith, first off I thought you were experienced, everybody KNOWS CAT's don't have problems. Do I have to teach you guys everything? Keith what version of CAT ET do you have? I assume you have your data link set up for DUAL data link, because you will never see the codes that are in the "Yellow" ECM. Your ATA 231-14 code is a 639-14 J1939 Code if you use a dual data-link. If you do not use dual data link you will be chasing your tail.

I can send you attachments but need an email to send it to, or go into SIS and find the 'chart' It only took me an hour. With all the new codes, the only way I ever find them is to plug-in (on dual data link) and search sis for the code.

 

Example: Codes are much longer 520197-4 CGI Absolute Pressure : Voltage Below Normal

 

You can find the chart and the data link test in Media #RENR9342 in sis. Cdes are about half way down page.

 

Our favorite saying "OEM Problem" Check data link configuration on CAT side to make sure it is set for 1939

 

You can check your Comm Adpater II is set correctly by plugging it into a vehicle for power, open CAT ET, after it boots up, diconnect, but keep communications adapter connected for power (red light)

Then do this:

Test Step 3. Check the Version of the Firmware for the Communication Adapter

 

Note: The version of the firmware for the communication adapter must be "3.0.0" or higher.

 

 

Electronically disconnect Cat ET. Verify that the "power" indicator on the communication adapter is illuminated.

 

Click on the "Utilities" menu.

 

Click on the "Comm Adapter II Toolkit" menu.

 

Wait for the tool kit to open. Then, click on the "Utilities" menu.

 

Click "Application Firmware Flash".

 

Select the latest ".apf" file from the list.

 

Click "OK". Then, click "Begin Flash".

 

Wait for the "Flashs Completed Successfully" message to appear.

 

Click "Toolkit". Verify that the "Application Firmware Version (Serial IP)" is "3.0.0" or higher.

 

Attempt to connect Cat ET.

Expected Result:

 

Cat ET communicates on both data links.

 

Results:

 

 

Yes - Cat ET communicates on both data links.STOP

 

No - Cat ET does not communicate on both data links. Proceed to Test Step 4.

Test Step 4. Verify That Cat ET is Configured Correctly

 

Cat ET must be configured correctly in order to communicate on both data links. Perform the following procedure:

 

 

Click on the "Utilities" menu.

 

Click on the "Preferences" menu.

 

Select the "Commmunications" tab.

 

Verify that "Caterpillar Communication Adapter II (Serial IP)" is selected.

If "Caterpillar Communication Adapter II (Serial IP)" is not an option for selection, the version of Cat ET is incorrect. Version "2007B" or higher must be used.

 

Update the version of Cat ET. Then, perform this Test Step again.

 

 

Verify that the port is correct.

 

Verify that the "Enable Dual Data Link Service" option is checked.

 

Click "OK".

Note: Cat ET must reconnect in order for any changes to be used.

 

 

Electronically disconnect Cat ET if changes were made to any of the settings for communications. Electronically connect Cat ET. Attempt to establish communication. Observe the indicators on the communication adapter.

At this point, a "limited support" warning should not be displayed. The "J1939 / DeviceNet" and "J1708" indicators should be flashing. This indicates that Cat ET is communicating on both data links.

 

Expected Result:

 

Cat ET is communicating on both data links.

 

Good Luck

Tim

[Keith Browning]

Tim thats awesome. I know that my comm module has NOT been updated but I am running the latest version of ET. I do get the dual network warning message when I connect to an ECM which is why I asked. I am glad I can correct that now.

 

The DTC charts in SIS web are listed as both ATA codes and J1939 codes where I found them. Now, when I update the firmware on my comm module and can communicate on the J1939 network, what added functionality will I gain?

 

I have to say that SIS web is not as user friendly as the Ford web site and manuals BUT the way it is set up you have everything you could need to access. For those who don't have access to Caterpillar SIS web, you enter an engine serial number or arrangement number and you have access to manuals, diagnostics, bulletins, recalls, parts lists, flash files, injector trim files and more. I always get a little lost using it because its a lot of stuff to navigate through. What little I have used it I know enough now to be dangerous.

 

Tim, Ill let you know when I update my module... THANK YOU! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif

 

As far as my experience with CAT - we are a TEPS dealer with limited authorization. Usually we send all CAT work to a CAT service center 15 miles away. Unfortunately, we have been having SERIOUS issues with lack of professionalism, communication, and quality of workmanship.

 

SIDE NOTE: This 2008 truck we are having problems with had the fuel pump recall performed a few weeks ago. When I was replacing the harness I discovered the fusible link for the intake air heater melted and opened. Once I exposed the control solenoid I saw a large burn mark on the solenoid bracket and the other end of the fusible link cable was welded to the retaining nut. The knuckle dragger must have known this happened as it would have startled the crap out of anyone. I wonder what he stuck in there and why. Obviously the batteries were not disconnected before servicing. He also left all of the harness brackets unbolted from the engine and there was oil everywhere.

 

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[HeuiTim]

Sis is awesome but I get lost everytime I use it for Diagnostics. I don't know what dual data link will do for you, but I have gotten two very different downloads, Warranty and codes before and after setting dual data-links on my laptop on 2007+ engine only. You should not have to change back for older engines. Ford may give you what you need already, I don't know what they give you access to( I dont care because I have enough trouble keeping up with yellow changes) The biggest thing is if you are in contact with a TC (technical communicator) from your local Cat Dealer while working on the engine, you and him will be speaking the same language!

 

 

Communication is an issue EVERYWHERE, don't worry you are not special. I will leave it at that. We are hourly, so we help each other, only way to survive. I am a nosey prick, so I know what everybody else is doing, why figure out the same thing twice. Flat -rate shops don't appeal to me for the helpful-ness factor

[Keith Browning]

Ford may give you what you need already, I don't know what they give you access to( I don't care because I have enough trouble keeping up with yellow changes)

Ford Motor Company gives us NOTHING beyond the requirement that to sell Caterpillar equipped Ford trucks there has to be a CAT trained and certified technician for one. All training, equipment and CAT specific service issues are dealt with Caterpillar only. You must be thinking that since Ford/Blue Diamond Truck builds the trucks and Cat builds the engines there is some relationship and support system, but there is not. In fact, the Ford guys have no information AT ALL! I have more than they do. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif My service manager was on the phone with three Engineers at Ford (conference call) and THEY were clueless as to what each other were doing. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/stooges.gif This is probably the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what is going on inside Ford Motor Company.

 

 

Originally Posted By: HeuiTim

The biggest thing is if you are in contact with a TC (technical communicator) from your local Cat Dealer while working on the engine, you and him will be speaking the same language!

I'll have to research this. I do have access to an engineer Caterpillar who gave me his direct line. Great guy, he spent three hours on the phone with me when this situation started to unfold. Asked me to keep in touch on this one.

[HeuiTim]

I will ask my TC monday how it works with you guys. You should have local help from Cat Dealer. I know they are in constant contact with Teps shops in our area. It may go back to level of customer service.....shut up tim!

[eastendpowerstroke]

As Keith said Ford gives us nothing as far as info on CAT except to notify us on OASIS if there is a cat recall.

On the good side my TEPS manager from my local CAT dealer (H.O.Penn) is Mark Goldberg, and is by far the most helpful human being I have ever known.

[HeuiTim]

On the good side my TEPS manager from my local CAT dealer (H.O.Penn) is Mark Goldberg, and is by far the most helpful human being I have ever known.

Does this guy cover Keith's area? Our area works a little different due to area covered but you Ford guys should all have a dedicated contact from your local CAT Dealer. They may do everything in their store(like run it) or just help you guys. So you want to make sure you get names of contacts so you follow the correct chain of command. If you call CAT's 1-800 # they should get you in contact with your local rep or directly with a TC, such as Mark is I assume. Its important to get this communication open especially with Cat ET issues.

 

Just a side note, I hate Ford F-Series with CAT's, even a valve adjustment is a pain in the A**. Lot of respect for you guys.

 

Tim

[Keith Browning]

My dealer goes through Foley Cat in Piscatoway NJ. I even go there for training. I have lost a lot of faith in them after this recent go around and the stuff I discovered. I noticed how far into the firewall the C7 goes and I agree it looks like a bitch.

[Keith Browning]

FINAL REPORT:

 

We Fed-Ex'd the harness to Detroit for an official examination and it was deemed bad. There were some pins that were installed crooked (if that can happen) and that caused a poor connection. Now I have four more harnesses to install. Interestingly, four of these five trucks have consecutive VINs. I am not excited about having to replace more harnesses but I am glad this was finally solved. If we are lucky, the lawsuit won't proceed and the customer will take his truck.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

I guess Jose,Gaudalupi, or Enrique will be responsible for this Fubar. They might get charged back 10-15 cents on their hourly wage of 50 cents a hour.