mchan68 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's Saturday. My shift to work today. I get an '06 F-150 in for a 4WD inop concern. Verify concern. Check operation of the vacuum solenoid. Run IDS test and get P1867. Monitor PIDs and verified switch operation with the contact plates yada yada yada. Check OASIS. Run the tests as per TSB 06-9-8 with the shift motor. Ordered the shift motor, and released the vehicle. About half an hour later, I get paged and told to cancel the order. Was told the customer would bring it to another dealer to have it replaced. The story goes, that the "other dealer" had nobody to diagnose it. So, I lose my time, while some other dickhead gets paid!!! Sorry for the rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Yeah sounds like this is becoming a serious problem everywhere, we had a Freestar in last week for a trans problem, we diag'd it and it was towed to another dealer for the repair.... what the hell is this all about?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 For the customers sake, I hope you fucked up! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif All kidding aside, that sucks royally and unfortunately there is probably nothing you can do about this either. Suck it up Mike, there are a lot of assholes out there... and they call us Stealerships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 For the customers sake, I hope you fucked up! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif All kidding aside, that sucks royally and unfortunately there is probably nothing you can do about this either. Suck it up Mike, there are a lot of assholes out there... and they call us Stealerships? Well, on the flip side of things, I also got an '03 Explorer that some woman had just taken to a "garage" to have four new snow tires installed. She had suspected that they were jerking her around. Well, it appears that whoever did her last brake job didn't seat the front brake pads properly, causing it to wear the oustside lining. Her left headlight was "too low". After taking a quick look, I noticed that whoever replaced her bulb didn't secure the left housing clip into the headlight assembly. No biggie. I finally get to raising the vehicle to change the oil, someone had stripped her drain plug and put in a bigger one. I tried using a 1/2" drive ratchet with a six-point socket and was unable to budge it loose. Not wanting to cause any further issues, I told the advisor that she may be needing an oil pan if I persisted. Well, she instructs me to just leave it. She decided to take it back to the shop, so that if they break the oil pan, they would be responsible. This woman slipped me a twenty and left. A few minutes later, she arrives back with a BAD vibration. I roll it back into the shop, low and behold, ALL the wheel nuts had worked its way loose!!! What the hell is with some of these "shops"? I told her the exact same thing, regarding people's attitudes toward US, and how we are called STEALERSHIPS. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I'm with Shlep on this one, saw the R.O. myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Mike... it ain't right.... no amount of conjecture is going to make it right... but who are we going to blame for the circumstance.... The customer.... all he's after is getting his 4WD working.... It appears that the truck is still under warranty.... Is he "your" customer to begin with? Or is he one of Fords customers and you just happened to be there.... It's not supposed to make a difference, but we all know that it does. In his defence... he did call to say that his concern was being addressed to his satisfaction. Most guys in a similar situation wouldn't have offered that courtesy. The parts department.... is this a part that they should be stocking but don't? Is it a part that they regularly stock but screwed up on? Why did one dealer in your area have the part but your parts department didn't? If they search the P/N, do their numbers show how many "turns" this part has had in the last 12 months? Did they contribute to the fiasco? Your service department... surely they have no control over what went on.... How far down the road did they schedule the repair? Is there something they could have done differently? Your part in the deal (and you can smell a sidebar coming, right?)..... how much time did you have into the deal? The TSB (only one of several "advices" on F150 4X4) only pays 0.9. I would think that, in a case like this, the service department should pony up something to make you feel a little better about the deal.... Without the R&R and retest, it ain't gonna be a whole bunch... but it should be something.... The sidebar..... well, there isn't one... but let's take a peek at the new thread "OASIS"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Most guys in a similar situation wouldn't have offered that courtesy.None the less Jim, it was a stupid customer trick if I ever saw one. A telephone call is little consolation for the lost time, not just the time spent on the vehicle he is now not going to be paid for looking at and ordering the part, but also the job he would been working on if this guy hadn't happened along. Courtesy? BULLSHIT! It was likely the customers intention all along to USE Mike and his dealer for a second opinion and that is what I have a problem with. It's the good `ol "hooray for me and fuck everybody else" attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Jim Warman Most guys in a similar situation wouldn't have offered that courtesy. None the less Jim, it was a stupid customer trick if I ever saw one. A telephone call is little consolation for the lost time, not just the time spent on the vehicle he is now not going to be paid for looking at and ordering the part, but also the job he would been working on if this guy hadn't happened along. Courtesy? BULLSHIT! It was likely the customers intention all along to USE Mike and his dealer for a second opinion and that is what I have a problem with. It's the good `ol "hooray for me and fuck everybody else" attitude.THANK YOU!!! Yes, I got SUCKERED, and you saw that. So how or what do I do to prevent this from happening again? This is only for a measely 0.9 which is no big deal. But, what about the diesel stuff, where you and I both know there are a lot of more intrusive tests involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Stupid customer trick.... yes.... But there is nothing binding him to us once the process is started. All he wants (and deserves) is a truck that works... Let's look at happenstance (and we still don't know where the customer bought the truck from)... Did dealer A send the truck to dealer B with the idea that dealer B could fix it..... probably. Dealer B didn't have the part... so maybe the customer phoned dealer A (who just might have been the selling dealer) asking what to do? Dealer A has the part... well... "lets git-er-dun!!". I may be missing something with my obsolete views, but I figured that the first order of the day was a "happy customer". These people seem to make life a tad better.... Happy customer doesn't always mean happy tech/shop/store/whatever... Nobody ever promised me a rose garden and there are times I just suck it up.... If I am looking for a particular product and store A can't help me, I might order in the object of my desire.... If I later see that store B can fix me up on the spot... what am I to do? Go without because of some sense of propriety? Is it right that a customer should "shop around" to find resolution to his concern? What could be wrong about it? Does performing a diagnosis constitute a binding contract? If dealer A couldn't diagnose the concern.. we have a problem. Mike is in Canada.... Dealer A cannot perform mechanical repairs without a journeyman on premises. If that journeyman can't fix something this simple... then dealer A has a very real problem on their hands. I don't think that this started as any kind of collusion... but somewhere along the line, it developed a bad smell.... But the fact remains. The customer is happy.... and part of the reason he is happy is because he had freedom of choice.... (something about democratic principals and rights and freedoms and shit like that). OK... so it didn't go well for one of US... Are we going to hire lawyers and sue because the freemarket system is a bad system? Is everything we do going to be silently bound by some unwritten code of ethics? The menu said I was going to enjoy my meal and I damned well better enjoy it because the chef said so? Life ain't fair... never was, never will be (watch "Animal Planet" and see that cute little whatever get ripped apart by something bigger, faster and hungry). Or is there a chance that people are missing my statement about the shop ponying up for the lost time? Who matters the most? Me? Or my customer? Gawd.... I don't believe we are having this conversation...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Jim, after reading my original post, maybe there are some tidbits of information I need to add, just to clarify things. Firstly, the truck was brought in, written up as "Check for 4WD won't engage". What's Step #1 that those Ford courses keep pounding in our head? VERIFY THE CONCERN, which is what I did. So I bring it into my bay and check under the hood to make sure the vacuum solenoid is working as it should. No probs there. Like you say, since there's a module involved, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check for DTCs. Which I did, and sure enough, P1867 came up. After that, I monitored the PIDs and found the selector switch working as it should, with the contact plates, switch status etc. I go to check OASIS and enter the DTC in the symptom code box, and sure enough the TSB appears. So, I put the truck in air and perform the checks as instructed by the TSB, and sure enough, the next step is to replace the shift motor. So, off I go to the parts department to order the shift motor, and no, the "other" dealer didn't have it in stock. After the vehicle is released, is when I was instructed to cancel the order for the shift motor. A few minutes later, the "other" dealer calls the parts guy asking for the part number so THEY can order it. The story goes, "...they don't have anyone to diagnose these kind of problems at the other dealer", was what was explained to me by the advisor. One of my co-workers said that I should've claimed a 14200A wiring repair and charged some M-time on the RO before she had a chance to void or close the RO. I didn't do that because I refuse to stoop to that level. But nonetheless, I was not a happy camper. And yes Keith, the three other guys in the shop certainly made their day, while I got stuck with this, and the poor woman who had her 2003 Explorer butchered up. Again, sorry for the rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Ahhhhh, the devil is in the details.... I'd be posting the name of the other dealer (dealer A) loud and wide.... They can't diagnose a concern? They can't use OASIS to their benefit (even though the TSB lists the part number)? And they can't read the parts catalogue? They have fallen down at least three times that I can figure... and the customer returns there? There's gotta be more to the story.... this is too strange to be true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I just pent 30 minutes typing out a long reply which I decided not to post. Mike needed to vent and asked us for an opinion of which he has now a few. I don't think dissecting his diagnostic process or whether he checked OASIS was relevant at all. Regardless of his intentions or whether he had any clue that his actions would affect another human being personally, this customers actions were wrong. For me to expand upon that at all would be senseless folly. Mike will get over it and I am sure the customer and his 4X4 are quite happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 Ahhhhh, the devil is in the details.... I'd be posting the name of the other dealer (dealer A) loud and wide.... They can't diagnose a concern? They can't use OASIS to their benefit (even though the TSB lists the part number)? And they can't read the parts catalogue? They have fallen down at least three times that I can figure... and the customer returns there? There's gotta be more to the story.... this is too strange to be true.... Cruickshank Ford/Lincoln or "Crooked shank" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Kieth... I meant no disrespect. I realize that there are many things at play, here... Mike has every right to be pissed at what happened... But who can he get pissed at? A lot of things didn't go right, a lot of things did go wrong... But where does the fault lie. This is a complex circumstance... given that the customer opted to go back to dealer A and let them ORDER the part sounds odd... very odd. Mike filled in some blanks that I didn't realize were there.... And it now appears that Cruikshank Ford is an inadequate dealer (uh-oh... I'm stepping on toes again). One would have to wonder how they can conduct business if this is "de rigeur". As far as the OASIS mention... Mike opened the door and I wasn't busting anyones chops.... Checking OASIS early in the diag is a must.... If I am wrong, someone is going to have to point out why. Shit goes bad.... I've seen it go bad when it wants to for nearly 40 years... If it looks like I'm gloating... bust MY chops... If it looks like I'm offering constructive advice - WTF? I spent a lot of time aching for a resource like this... and I see guys that don't make the fullest use of it that they can... or at the time they should... This is something that we CAN fix.... And for that reason alone, we should. Given the info as presented, I don't feel I have spoken out of turn and I don't feel my sidebar was unjustified.... I am not passing judgement on Mikes process, I only intend to help improve it. If this is bad.... ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 My feeling is the problem wasn't the process. It was that no party was billed for the diagnosis. If the owner of the vehicle doesn't want to finalize the repair, it is billed to them. It is customer pay, period. If the shop doesn't want to charge them, the shop internals the ticket and pays my time. Amazing how when it is just the shops dime, they do a better job of getting the owner to return to complete the repair. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Given the info as presented, I don't feel I have spoken out of turn and I don't feel my sidebar was unjustified.... I am not passing judgment on Mikes process, I only intend to help improve it. If this is bad.... ???? You didn't speak out of turn Jim, like I wrote, the subject just struck a nerve with me. I'll be fine in the morning. As for you, don't change a thing! As for the rest of you , don't hold back if you think you might offend someone or challenge an opinion. This is WHY we all visit here, right! Carry on fellas /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Stupid customer trick.... yes.... But there is nothing binding him to us once the process is started. All he wants (and deserves) is a truck that works... Ahhh, but what binds us to this customer? No matter how you look at this whole situation, it's nothing more than BULLSHIT! Don't misunderstand me. I am all about fixed right first time and customer satifaction. However, there is a very simple resolution to asshole situations like this. First of all, this happens quite alot here in Alberta. Dealerships here are extremely overloaded with work and have sometimes, two to three week waiting lists. Here is an example that has happened more than once at our dealership: Customer cannot get his truck into his local selling dealership for two or three weeks, he brings it into us for coolant blowing out of degas bottle, I diagnose it and let him know that EGR cooler and Engine oil cooler are faulty which have to be repaired first and then head gaskets have to be diagnosed after that repair. Customer does not like the idea of the amount of down time and the fact that we charge for loaners to non local customers. He phones his local dealership and finds out that he can have a loaner for no charge from them. He says forget it, he is taking it to his local dealership. No parts charged out on R.O. means no pay for us. Here is our simple policy: It just turned retail. Customer pays our labour for diagnosis and can take the bill to his local dealership for reimbursement. If he refuses to pay, we refuse to release the vehicle. Now: We will reimburse the charges if the customer brings it back to us for repair. Other wise:F@ck Off! We have run into this situation and situations similar to Michael's quite often. We are not in the business to bend over ass backwards and lose money. We are in the business to bend over ass back wards and have a great relationship with our customers and make money and save our customers money. Like I said: CUSTOMER PAY in that situation. He ain't comin back anyway and NOTHING BINDS US TO HIM! And dealerships that don't look after their tech's in these situation's are just another one of the problems that are what is wrong with this trade. Doctor's, Lawyer's and Indian Chiefs don't work for nothin. Why should we? Don't worry Jim, I respect what you always have to say. But like Keith, this topic lights a fire under my ass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 No parts charged out on R.O. means no pay for us. Here is our simple policy: It just turned retail. Customer pays our labour for diagnosis and can take the bill to his local dealership for reimbursement. If he refuses to pay' date=' we refuse to release the vehicle. Now: We will reimburse the charges if the customer brings it back to us for repair. Other wise:F@ck Off! [/quote'] Nice. I like it! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Dwayne... In Mikes case, the customer "escaped"... diag is done... part is ordered... the repair is warranty... appointment made... And then, for some reason, the house of cards comes tumbling down... Charge for a diag under warranty and you are going to have Ford all over you like hair on an ape... While we desparately need to be profitable and ensure the earnings of our techs... we desparately need to be sure we aren't pissing people off in the process... or pissing Ford off in the process... One would think that there would be some code of ethics (written or unwritten) between dealerships regarding these sorts of situations... Apparently, it's dog eat dog.... in the abscence of any real way to control it (other than charging people for shit that should be free to them), all we can do is deal with it and move on... To most of our customers, we aren't <Anytown> Ford Sales... we are FoMoCo. Fair and equitable don't enter the thought process when all you can think about is your $50,000 truck that doesn't work right. We're techs... unless it is a warranty chargeback for some improper or ineffective repair... we shouldn't have to worry about the customer pulling up stakes and moving the repair to a different store. It's not the techs fault that parts are on order... it's not the techs fault that the shop is booked three weeks. Did the old fart take an about face? No... the problem is far too complex to address in some simple "fits all" manner. One thing for sure... if the word get's out that we are charging for warranty diag with the promise for reimbursment if we get the repair... it shouldn't take long for us to stop worrying about shop back-log.... At least we'll finally have time for waxing our toolboxes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Quote: We're techs... unless it is a warranty chargeback for some improper or ineffective repair... we shouldn't have to worry about the customer pulling up stakes and moving the repair to a different store. It's not the techs fault that parts are on order... it's not the techs fault that the shop is booked three weeks. True Jim. But in Michael's case, his dealership dropped the ball and should look after him. And you also have to take into consideration that alot of these customers are just looking for free repairs and whatever they can get for absolutely nothing. Half of these people out there don't even come back to their local dealerships for regular service because they are way to busy to book a schedule. Therefore, they are spending all their money at quicky lube ripoff shops and coming to us for freebees. When I used to go to the Shop Foreman meatings in Edmonton, one of the topics that was always stressed upon on Ford's behalf was: does the customer regularily service the vehicle and why are dealerhips warrantying so much stuff if they are not the original selling dealership on thise vehicles. Now I don't agree with the fact that you should have to take your vehicle back to the original selling dealership for warranty repairs even though Ford stresses it in the Warranty Policy Manual. But I do agree with the fact that the customers should have to service these vehicles regularily toi maintain their warranty. And this topic had come up at those meatings because alot of dealerships would abuse the No Problem Found Worksheats to try and recover lost costs for situations like Michael's. Ford's stand was that it is not their responsibility to pay for diagnosis because of another dealership's inadequecies or a customer's scheme's to get what they want for nothing. Ford had told us back then that we are to treat these situations as Retail and that there are processes for the customer to take to get reimbursement from Ford through the dealership performing the repair. We are also reminded of this whenever we go through audits. EDITED to change the quotation parameter from code, caused the page to display incorrectly - software issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Dwayne... in my first reply to this thread, I stated to the effect that I would expect the store to pony up something for his time... I'm not sure if or how that fact might have gotten lost.... Flat rate reading? In this customers case... the truck "sounds" like it is in the B to B warranty (it hasn't been stated but, since the vehicle was released on the 'promise' of a repair appointment, one has to assume this is the case). The customer is looking for something for "free"... well, he did pay for the warranty in the purchase price of the truck.... and I would hazard a guess that this repair should be "free" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif ? For my part, I would prefer a customer to return to his selling dealer (even though Ford stresses the "universal" aspect of the waranty). Store X offers red carpet service and well trained people with good tools... Store Z doesn't give a rats ass. Store X has to pay for that red carpet service somehow and that will usually reflect in the selling price. Store Z lowballs the selling price, hands you your keys and tells you to fuck off and bother store X if you expect anything more. We all have people looking for stuff for free or trying to pay as little as they can for as much as they can get.... this isn't a dealership thing.... When I was in my own store (read that as self-employed), somebody would read me the riot act because I expected to be paid for hardware and wire and such... I'd look them in they eye and ak them if "wire was something I should buy by the roll so I could give it away by the foot".... But this isn't about someone looking for free shit... this is about a guy that simply wanted his truck (apparently still under warranty) to work.... Where is the scheme to get something for nothing? Did they have to back the mileage up on the RO? Nobody has indicated this as a fact.... In this case, isn't the customer entitled to a "free" repair? There's a TSB on the concern so it can't be something too out of line... WTF? I empathize with Mike... I've said that I think his store should pony up for his time... SEVERAL TIMES! But someone is going to have to explain to me how we are going to get a customer to part with his coin of the realm to ensure that he will come back for something that is going to be a warranty repair..... My loving bride is topsy-turvy over KitchenAid appliances... Our barely one year old range needed a new cooktop... still covered under warranty. After checking supply and such... the repair guy told me nearly two months before it could be replaced. Oh, we could still cook on it... it just didn't work absolutely right (kinda like having a 4X4 that doesn't go into 4WD). If he had asked for money to ensure that he was going to get the repair, my house would be full of another brand of appliances in a heartbeat. The car I bought for the love of my life still has two years and nearly 90,000 kms of base warranty left. If she was passing Innisfail and the MIL came on and she stopped by your store and you didn't have the part(s) needed on hand but the car was OK to drive... how much would your store charge me? Am I looking for free shit? Am I a bad customer if I don't think my wife needs to spend one or two days in a motel in Innisfail? All I'm after is a car that works as it should and a wife that is at home, safe and sound... I don't want your free shit... all I want is what is owed to me.... warranty coverage. Ask customers to pay up front for an obvious warranty repair? They will start staying away in droves..... FWIW... if you bought from us, we will try to cover those "iffy" things... Door froze shut and you pulled on the handle too hard? No problem.... If there's a chance you might buy from us in the future... there's a good chance you'll leave smiling... Obvious mistreatment or lack of service..... Good luck, Charlie. But that isn't the case in this thread, is it? One more time for the record.... Like I said... I think Mikes dealership should pony up for at least some of his time... Did I forget to mention that I think Mikes store should come good for a realistic payment for his efforts? Sheesh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 We do not charge this fee if we know we can repair it or get some sort of pay through Ford. There are also processes to be taken into considration for this type of situation. I agree with you about that type of situation and the fact that Michael's dealership should look after him. We have this policy in effect because of the fact that we are only fifteen minutes out of RedDeer and we are almost like a suburb to them. With that situation, we are almost like the third dealership for this city and area. And we see alot of oil patch mentality abuse situations like this. These guys out here run from dealership to dealership looking for the magic place that can perform miracles. This is a similar situation to Michael's situation and it happens more around cities where customers can run from dealership to dealership. That, as far as I am concerned is just Bullshit. You can't make me agree that it is a good situation. No way, uhh uhhh, forget it, not gonna agree, my ears are plugged, I can't hear youuuu. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif You waited two months for your stove to be repaired and you were understanding. Try to get a rig pig to wait two months for his truck out here. He will be yelling and screaming at us and telling us what a bunch of incompetent assholes we are. Anywho, I mentioned our policy more for situations like that. And most of the time customers understand it and leave their vehicle with us to be repaired in the end anyway. And Jim, that's why this topic lights a fire under my ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Keith, Jim, and Dwayne, thanks for your support. To tell you the truth, I wasn't expecting this thread to start a debate to this magnitude. I was only venting. To set things straight, the advisor agreed that I should get paid something for my time spent. Whether or not I will get paid will be another story though. BTW, how's the scar on your head healing Dwayne. The guys in my shop seem to think it's funny when I smack MY melon, but when they do it, I'm not allowed to laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 It healed just fine, but I now have an extra part line in my hair. All I need now is two bolts stuck in my neck. Thankfully, I have a full head of hair that covers it up so that you would never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Mike... ya done good... it's these sorts of threads that can, eventually, get dialogue going and stir creative juices... Heated discussion simply means that it is a very important subject and there are differing viewpoints... Somewhere, somehow, someone just might come up with an idea that can take some of these speedbumps out of our lives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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