04 E-450 Unusual DTCs

[mchan68]

I've got one here that came in on the hook as a no-start. It appears that the driver attempted to restart this vehicle several times killing the batteries in the process. Checked OASIS and found no warranty repairs have been carried out except the recalls for the EBP and ICP connectors. Unit has only 80,000 kms. (I guess about 50,000 miles for you 'mericans). After replacing both batteries I got CMDTCs for P1102, P0404, P0405, P0272, P0299, P0341, P2291... etc. Well, when I first attempted to run KOER, it flagged a P1408 and kicked me out. Ran IDS/EGR and it passed, although EGR valve response was a little on the slow side, it did pass. Attempt #2 for KOER booted me out again for a P1284. Attempt to go into power balance failed due to "module out of SYNC". Attempt #3 for KOER revealed no on-demand DTCs, but the same CMDTCs as mentioned above. The engine will intermittently run like it's missing. Monitored PIDs revealed nothing unusual. All the SYNC PIDs indicated "yes". P1408 and P1284? Anybody else ever get those on a 6.0L? Customer didn't have time to leave it, so he's bringing it back next week. Just asking for some input for a head start. Anybody ever have any ICP issues on an '04? Thanks in advance.

[Jeff_]

First off, Yes, I have seen ICP sensor problems in the past, and they cause all kinds of problems. When I look at your list of codes I categorize them 2 ways: possible causes, and possible symptoms. The 0299/0341/1408/1284/1102 can often show up as symptoms of another root cause. The 0404/0405/0272/2291 seem to point more toward actual root causes. At this point we know the pcm is seeing problems with the egr, as well as its ability to control icp, and also a miss on cyl 4. What is interesting, is that though the pcm has several different VREF outputs, the ICP and EGR happen to share the same one, thus a short in one would affect VREF to the other and cause the pcm to see faults in both. I think the pid monitor function is going to be your friend here. With the key on and engine off, monitor your VREF, and ICP pids. VREF should be 5V, and static ICP should normally be .18-.24V in my experience depending on engine temp. If VREF is low, look at your evtm and unplug any and all VREF sensors 1 at a time to see if it is being shorted out by a sensor. If Vref is still low, check the workmanship of the prior ebp and icp connector recalls to make sure there are no problems in the harness as a result of poor insulation or crimping. If VREF is normal but ICP is out of specs, try a new ICP sensor. IF VREF and ICP are both normal, watch your ICP pid when cranking... if it is slow to come up to 500 psi you may have an actual injection pressure leak (which may or may not be related to the #4 injector). If you are led down this path perform the air test as specified in the pced. Keep in mind that often times such leaks only occour on a hot engine. Hopefully you find this helpful, I have more ideas but these are relatively easy tests to perform, and the answers to these questions will determine the next steps.

[Keith Browning]

If VREF is low, look at your evtm and unplug any and all VREF sensors 1 at a time to see if it is being shorted out by a sensor. If Vref is still low, check the workmanship of the prior ebp and icp connector recalls to make sure there are no problems in the harness as a result of poor insulation or crimping.

I have had two in the past that had driveability issues due to poor workmanship related to the installation of sensor harness pigtails. One ICP and one EBP - both were due to the fact that the tech performing the recall did not adequately tape the harness or install convolute over the wires. If you suspect an intermittent VREF short try making a recording and look for the playback to "jump" or stop momentarily during auto play. This is the tell-tale sign that there is a VREF short.

[mchan68]

Well gentlemen, rather than to start a new post, I thought it would be more appropriate to revive this one, since it pertains to this same vehicle.

 

It appears that after I replaced both batteries RETAIL, the customer was happy enough to take the vehicle back and drive it, without returning a week later as promised to deal with the other issues.......................until today, 30,000kms. and 6 months later (unit now has 110,000kms.), when it now can't accelerate to get out of its own way, blows plumes of black out the tailpipe. After checking OASIS again, this vehicle hasn't since been to any other dealer for any other repairs. This time monitoring the EGR_VP PID revealed exactly as I suspected 3.3 volts, stuck wide open. So, after replacing the EGR valve I noticed crap that was lodged into the valve itself, is a lot harder and more greyish looking than I'm used to seeing, unlike the usual black sooty and sometimes moist consistency caused by poor fuel and/or EGR cooler failure.

 

After replacing the valve, I proceeded to run the air management test which mandated bringing the EOT up to >185*F. Well, it didn't take 30 seconds while revving it at 3,700 RPM for it to skyrocket to 240*F and for plumes of white fumes to emit from the degas bottle, accompanied by the LOUDEST ever turbo flutter I have ever heard on any 6.0L before I tried to quickly shut it down, and the cap just shot right up out of there, showering myself and the truck with green coolant and brown shit in the process.

 

The DTCs retrieved this time, are the same as those listed in my original post, with the exception of no more P0341, P0272 or P2291. After letting the engine cool down, I tried to do a relative compression with IDS about 5 times. All 5 of those times, the engine ended up starting while the timer was in the middle of the countdown, and up comes the error window prompting me that the test could not be completed due to "unexpected RPM change". Anyone ever have that happen before? After topping up the lost coolant from the "explosion", it didn't take long for ECT to shoot up to about 250ish*F while EOT shot up to about 220*F. It's funny how the TSB tells us to replace the oil cooler if the EOT is more than 25*F greater than ECT. Has anyone else ever had ECT increase to that much higher than EOT? Looking at the degas bottle, you see the brownish colour and smell to it, exactly like what you would see and smell on any '96 to'99 Taurus 3.0L OHV, unlike the greyish mud you find typically on any 6.0L where oil and coolant marry.

 

Funny thing too, as I attempted to run a KOER test, it booted me out of it right away again, flagging the same P1284 as previously listed, but on the second attempt it went through with the same CMDTCs as listed above. So, I monitored the ICP/IPR/RPM PIDs for a couple minutes with wiggle testing the ICP/EBP connectors figuring maybe that recall for the two might have been poorly carried out. And wiggle testing failed to cause any type of reaction (ICP stayed steady at 580ish while IPR at 22% which is normal).

 

SOOOOOOOOOO..........what do you think, am I pulling heads on this one gents? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me no!!! Not on an E-450 cubevan /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif!

 

All kidding aside, I'm thinking I should be fixing the turbo issues (clean or replace depending on what I find when I take it apart) and replacing both coolers FIRST, and then driving it with a pressure gauge connected to see if it still pukes coolant, which if it still does, it's heads off? Or, do you guys think I should be pulling heads right off the bat?

[Jim Warman]

Hi Mikey.... Let's try point by point...

 

The crud in the EGR valve.... the van overheats without much coaxing... I'm thinking baked soot - really well baked....

 

Brown shit... casting sand? bars leaks? What could this crap do for the oil cooler?

 

P1284.... something is nagging me about this and I can't remember what.... I 'think' a PCM might have been replaced and the problem turned out to be something in the wiring... the one I'm thinking of was a small bus and had shit added.... but P1284 is nagging me.... I wont sleep tonight and it will be your fault /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Relative compression.... it's almost like if you have certain windows or combinations of windows open in IDS, you will get "sudden rpm change" (i.e. a start when it shouldn't). I'm still trying to prove this to myself.

 

I'd check the rad for air restriction.... simply because most guys don't seem to think of it.... Cleaning any debris isn't going to change what you have - but there may be some clues to be found....

 

From what I can tell.... it is easy to get an egr cooler to puke in the bay.... shit, how many have I nearly hydrolocked? Head gaskets gotta be real bad to puke anywhere but under a real good load....

 

Without giving as much thought to the repair strategy as I'd like, I would consider an EGR cooler and oil cooler first....

 

There ain't no coolant loss concerns you will fix with turbo repairs now.... Point to ponder.... we can avert coolant loss concerns if we can prevent overboost.... Once we get into overboost conditions bad enough to hurt shit - fixing the overboost is only part of the concern.

 

You might wind up yanking the heads.... but I'd address the less intrusive stuff first.

 

Look at it this way.... you can lose your shirts one at a time, or you can lose them all at once....

 

I'm still pondering a rewarding career in the food and hospitality industry (<DING!> Fries are done - this pays nearly $15 / hr for full time in our town.... ).

[mchan68]

Brown shit... casting sand? bars leaks? What could this crap do for the oil cooler?

I did notice a fresh oil change sticker reminder in the windshield from Mr. Lube, so I'm thinking it's either the customer got sold on a coolant flush by the flush queens at lube goobers, or they've been driving it with this coolant loss issue for a while now, topping it up and topping it up..........

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

Relative compression.... it's almost like if you have certain windows or combinations of windows open in IDS, you will get "sudden rpm change" (i.e. a start when it shouldn't). I'm still trying to prove this to myself.

I was thinking more along the lines of some kind of "alternative fuel source" is making its way into the engine, causing it to start. The reason I wanted to see it, was because I noticed the engine sounded strange when I cranked it over after replacing the EGR valve, like there were uneven compressions.

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

There ain't no coolant loss concerns you will fix with turbo repairs now.... Point to ponder.... we can avert coolant loss concerns if we can prevent overboost.... Once we get into overboost conditions bad enough to hurt shit - fixing the overboost is only part of the concern.

 

I was thinking the same thing too. Replace both coolers, and pull the turbo apart to see if it can be cleaned, and replaced if necessary. After which, I would drive it home with a pressure gauge teed into the degas bottle and taped to the windshield. Something is giving me this AWFUL feeling that it's deeper than this though. Like you've said, it didn't take much "coaxing" as you put it, to get the gauge going into the red, and the fan clutch to scream its lungs out.

[mchan68]

Tried to run relative compression again this morning. Again, the engine started while in the middle of the countdown. Had a brainfart, and reattempted it, with FICM disabled. Tried to printscreen the results here, but was unable to. Not smart enough to figure out how to post IDS screen shots here. The results are cylinders #1, 4, 5, 6 & 8 are 0%. #2 & 7 are 1% which I can ignore, but #3 was down 5% and in the yellow. So, does this mean it's head(s) off?

[Bruce Amacker]

I've seen carbon hang valves after an EGR change and cause intermittent low compression and yellow bars. Run the engine a bit and perform the cranking compression test a few more times to make sure it's consistent. 5% is definitely something to be worried about but I'd back it up with a mechanical compression check. Too bad it's an E-van. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

Good Luck!

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/coffee.gif

[Aaron]

I've seen carbon hang valves after an EGR change and cause intermittent low compression and yellow bars.

The last couple I've changed did this after I attempted re-start. Scared the hell outta me on the first one, thought I dropped something down the damn intake!