Keith Browning Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 My writer hands me a repair order that has the following lines on it: Customer States: Perform Recall 07S57 Customer States: The cam sensor bore is stripped out The story is that the CMP failed on the guy and he had to repair it on the road. When he installed the sensor and tightened the bolt he over tightened it and pilled the threads out of the front engine cover. He applied Loc-Tite somehow. These are his words. So, after a conference with my Service Manager and my Service Adviser, I inspected it (the sensor) and it is a black sensor with a gold clamp, the bolt appears tight and fully seated. Before I finish the story I want to see what YOUR opinions as to who should be responsible for repairing the CMP hold down bolt threads OR replacing the cover should the threads actually be damaged? Please participate in the poll but do share your thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 The Customer should pay for the repair, he obviously damaged the threads and is responsible for the lack of knowledge or experience to do the repair correctly. I'm sorry he broke down on the road, but should have had it towed in. We wouldn't be having this discussion right now if he did. As for the sensor, where did he get the black one with the gold clamp? They aren't supposed to be available anymore. The gray ones are supposed to replace all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I recall doing an 07S57 on an ambulance this past winter. I broke the connector tab off trying to remove it (damn dual alternators)... when we called Ford about the broken connector, they said if it was broken when it arrived, it's the customers responsibility. Now, a little off topic... As it was broken by us, they sent us a connector. It took 3 weeks to arrive, and they would not authorize us to use the connectors we have in stock, seeing it is a safety recall, and they did not know if it was an "approved" connector... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I say Ford pays for the repair. The customer performed the "repair" himself and it was working properly when it came into the dealership (I assume) for a safety recall. You should check the threads in the front cover and if they are stripped then I would call the recall hotline and tell them about the problem. I would think Ford would allow you to install a thread-sert at M-time rather than replace the front cover. Thats my opinion and you know what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 My first instinct was to throw the customer under the bus for his own mistake, but I realized he would have never needed to try this repair himself had the sensor been designed properly in the first place. I agree he made a bad decision in trying to repair it himself, rather than towing it to a dealer, but there may be other factors that prevented him from doing so (like being in the process of pulling his own trailer, or simply being unaware of it being covered by a recall). Some people just aren't mechanically inclined, and unfortunately their first indication of this, is often a major fuck up like the one we are discussing. I don't view this customer as a major liability for Ford warranty (like the people who have their Banks 6GUN and cry warranty when they blow something up). ~ We know the type /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif This is just a normal customer who supported our company by purchasing our product, and managed to get his greasy fingers where they ought not be...a lesson probably not lost on him. He is exactly the kind of customer we need to keep happy if we are to stay in business in for long term, so here is what I suggest: BEST OPTION - Call the 07s57 program headquarters and explain the situation, see if they will cover the additional repair. SECOND BEST - P05/7 It so the Customer pays 10%, the Dealer pays 10%, and Ford pays 80%. As I understand it, this is exactly the kind of situation these options were made for. And if you do this, and explain it to the customer, You will likely gain a good customer for life who will eventually need ball joints, brakes, maintenance packages ect, and will come to your dealer for these services because you gained his trust and gratitude. Hell...He may need some of these services right now and you can fill a whole day by fixing up his truck. That's not too bad if it's an otherwise slow day at the dealership. WORST - Charge the customer the full amount for his mistake, and gain no loyalty from him. I must be in an especially charitable mood today, usually I'm a lot more of a hard ass /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Quote: usually I'm a lot more of a hard ass Hard ass??? The customer fucked the truck up and expects Ford (Mother) to fix it????He owes to pay up for the repair!!!!If he had Six-Gun you would make him pay wouldn't you??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 If he had a 6 gun I'd be the first one to shove it up his ass, just because that isn't the kind of customer I want anyway. I'm just not ready to throw this guy to the wolves if stripping out a bolt is the only mistake he has made. I see this as a potential opportunity for a good customer for the long run if handled properly. I think too much tunnel vision and short sightedness is what has caused so many of our dealerships to close their doors forever, and also what caused Ford to hemorrhage market share and cash to the tune of Billions of dollars over the last few years. How we handle situations like this is what will define us, and the success of our dealerships. Certainly people need to be spanked sometimes, but I'm a professional technician, and I've broken all kinds of shit...it happens /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif It reminds me of an old saying. Something about stepping over dollars to save pennies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I'm with jeff here. I too am a hard ass with the warranty, but this would be an easy repair with a threadsert. Ford will most likely cover it, and if they don't my dealer would likely goodwill/internal the repair to gain or keep a good customer. This all depends however on the attitude of the customer and any prior visits for service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 To be honest, I can find myself in agreement with most perspectives shared here so far. This is one of those trucks that come around only when a recall is issued. We did not sell it, we have no history with this Gentleman and the OASIS is clean. The truck is also well kept. I must say I am impressed with the owner's honesty. If he had just kept his mouth shut I would probably never had suspected the damage was pre-existing AND caused by human error. Like someone said, it's not his fault the sensors are prone to failure so I do feel for the guy... ooooh but he DID say that HE overtightened the bolt. Damn the honesty! Why for the love of humanity didn't the threads come out with the bolt!? To be continued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I say you call the warranty line and see if you can get approval for the additional time to install a heilcoil thread repair. If Ford says ok fix it on there dime and maybe gain a customer, if Ford won't approve it ask the customer if he would like to pay the parts and labor to...... A- have a heliciol installed to complete the repair. B- have the front cover replaced. C- Ignore the recall and take his truck without his free CMP. Chances are depending on the year of the truck it quite possibly has had two or more sensors installed so the question can be asked who really stripped the threads?? If that sensor wasn't a peice of crap to start with nobody would have needed to touch it in the past. How many times do you expect the threads in an aluminum cover to last?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 SECOND BEST - P05/7 It so the Customer pays 10%, the Dealer pays 10%, and Ford pays 80%. As I understand it, this is exactly the kind of situation these options were made for. And if you do this, and explain it to the customer, You will likely gain a good customer for life who will eventually need ball joints, brakes, maintenance packages ect, and will come to your dealer for these services because you gained his trust and gratitude. Hell...He may need some of these services right now and you can fill a whole day by fixing up his truck. That's not too bad if it's an otherwise slow day at the dealership. +1 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Customer's get treated according to the attitude they show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 The guy "isn't your customer" - one strike against. The truck is well kept... one strike for. The guy was honest and didn't cop an attitude... one strike for. Is he a regular on TDS? That could be 1/2 strike for or three strikes against. FWIW, some of the cleanest, best looking units I've ever worked on are 3s dressed up as 9s. How many things have we taken apart and the threads are already gonzo? Maybe this guy is smart enough to think he over-did it but too dumb to realize that someone earlier might be the culprit.... Having said all that.... the threads in the cover need to be repaired... This is not a torque critical fastener and a helicoil is going to be a repair that is more than adequate. That pesky little tab at the end of the insert may be a bone of contention - but (not having tried this before), we might be able to break that off before installing the insert and use blue loctite as a thread lube to ease installing the thing like a piece of string. A little care to avoid shavings in the crankcase from the drilling and tapping ops - barring anything I haven't considered, .5 ish or less? While we are doing the repair, the folks at the front desk can be doing their job and try to find out who is going to pay for it. If Ford asks who stripped the fastener out... the correct answer is "we don't know for sure"... because we really don't know for sure. If Ford wont pony up even little... and this is the customer you want to attract.... offer the guy a split on the labour and he pays a good dollar for the "part".... Start with a bit of manoeuvering room and if his face gets long they can pretend to crunch numbers.... sweeten the pot by a few bucks. It doesn't matter which way you do it.... the dice get rolled and he will either be yours or keep doing what he's been doing. FWIW, a clean OASIS simply means that he hasn't had any warranty repairs, right? Oddly, that can happen with some trucks. Bottom line... I don't think the repair is going to be earth shattering or budget changing. Design the outcome so that the shop will at least break even... you get paid, the shops time is covered even if there is no profit to show. The folks up front need to be honest with the guy and explain what the shop needs to break even. So... with all that I can honestly say that I don't f@cking know. Should Ford pay? We don't even know for sure when the injury happened. We should be glad that the guy didn't wind a lag screw in there or drill it out for the next size bigger fastener. If Ma Ford gives the green light, great... If they say "nay"... it's not like CMPs haven't shit the bed before.... Good willing the repair is financial suicide.... breaking even is about the best you will do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Okay, I might have jumped the gun, but it seems that this happens to many times. Guy buys truck hates dealer(Stealer), tries to fix himself or independent has no clue and has it towed in, in a basket. We have to figure out the jigsaw puzzle and still give the guy what he wants. Don't get me wrong I think it's great that he was honest with Keith, about what had happened...But still he should have to pay for most of it. Knowledge of these vehicles is what we are here for, the customers that do come in regularly know this, the ones that don't are the ones mis-informed. I think sitting him down and explaining what the options are(As Jim stated) worst case scenario to the best. Worst Ford(mother) says no to all counts, best Ford(mother) goes half with the customer. Either way the customer would see that we went to bat for them and maybe see that we aren't what the public sees us as. Keith good topic!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Keep us up to date on this one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 There is an underlying message in this topic that I did not want to bring up until we got some feedback and opinions on the scenario. This is not as much about who's responsibility the repair is as it is about the the reason it is an issue in the first place. This is what it has become. This is how we have been forced to think. This is what Ford Motor Company and the economic climate have turned us all into. In a service oriented business we are now even willing to not help a customer because Ford wont pay, or the dealer doesn't want to help out or even get involved in fear of being stuck with a larger repair bill. Understandably the customer did not want to spend a few bucks to repair a truck that was in all reality not broken at the time. Instead of getting the job done and improving the safety and reliability of this truck, everyone just put their hands in the air unwilling to get involved. Shame on all of us who are involved... in as little as we were willing to be. To be honest Ford Motor Company is not at fault here because to the best of my knowledge the recall support # was never dialed to see if there is any provision for assistance. It could have been a simple thread repair and a happy Ford owner. In a way I am embarrassed. I can see how all of the positions mentioned here are acceptable depending on which perspective you chose to take. The point is that it seems that we have been financially bullied into the thinking that we have to watch our own asses and that is more important than doing what is right for the customers and our reputations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 Perhaps I should elucidate (that is todays word, boys and girls), Keith. Having been in business for myself (for enough years to prove I was a shitty businessman) and now being in a lower management position... I have "my numbers" to watch out for. Am I a cruel, heartless bastuhd? When I need to be yes.... Truth be told.... I try to give a little "Easter egg" with every work order.... something we have done that we could have charged for but didn't... For the most part, these "Easter eggs" don't amount to a hill of beans.... Let's not forget the amount of time I spend on the phone or out in the driveway.... either giving away something I fought to learn or showing people how to read an owners manual. At the same time, we do have customers that deserve that extra "something". The elderly or others on "fixed" incomes.... single moms doing their best to make ends meet... These are the people that I like to help out the most... and I can do it without getting in a whole pile of crap (our DP is nearly a prince among men.... with his guidance and blessing we raise several thousands of dollars every year for Santas Anonymous and other worthy causes). One of our local food stores has a bin for donations to the local food bank. I can't speak for others but every time I go into that store, I make sure there is something in the basket that I can toss into the bin on my way out. Healthy people that can fend for themselves (whether they have shit for a job or not) can pay.... just like the rest of us. This statement is made so that I can retain my "resident curmudgeon" status.... OTOH, my two flat rate guys.... One is involved with the local Scout Troop... more because his boy is involved than any other reason and his wife is always doing something in the community.. the other ???? I'm not really sure. Both of these guys will stare at their time tickets for hours... I've seen them argue with the SM for .6 over being shorted for .1 Certainly, the flat rate pay system hasn't encouraged anyone to become charitable.... but the lack of charity is a problem with most of society in this brave, new world. In the scene you describe, would you have forgone your cut of the pie if the store didn't charge for the repair? How many here will make a "no charge" punch for even the smallest of tasks (I've seen guys stamp their feet because they were expected to change a wiper blade for free)? Eye-opener. When I was on the bench full time, what I was doing would define how many times I visited the punch clock. Now? A slow day can have me fill three time cards... Thankfully "Shmoozing <so and so>" is a legitamate labour op for me. The flat rate pay system isn't "creating" a problem as far as charity is concerned.... It is simply taking an existing problem (created by society) and making it worse. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 I think you failed to eludicate but you did force me to finally add a link to Dictionary.com in the Tech Resources list. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif I doubt it was as much about money as it was about dropping the ball like it was a hot potato. For what it's worth Jim, I rarely ever break my hourly guarantee therefore I am not forgoing any pie. To elaborate on the scenario, my Service Adsvisor was shaking his head and making excuses and proclaiming reasons to not get involved as he walked toward me to hand over the repair order. The Service Manager simply stepped in time but likely to the beat of a different drummer. The repair essentially never stood a fighting chance of getting proper consideration from the start. That to me is what speaks the loudest and I am just as much to blame for simply letting it go without offering any suggestions or insight from my perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 Your situation is one I had suggested during wage negotitations but it was passed over as being too difficult to administer... Hence, I am in a far better situation (not-withstanding the need to document my time VERY carefully to avoid misunderstandings) than I ever thought. Two thoughts. Guys like you and me are there for these "iffy" things.... our time can be assigned to anything the powers that be decide to assign it to... "internal", "good will", whatever. Most techs are paid flat rate... piece work, if you will... Can we expect the dealer to come "good" on a freeby if the tech isn't going to share in the act? Where do we draw the line? What would be considered "politically correct" (GAWD, I hate that term /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif ). When I was on the bench, I would often take more than my fair share of "one for the team" simply because I dislike disharmony. So I lost a couple of thousand bucks over the course of a year.... It's only fucking money and if that is the main goal in life, someone has missed the boat. I didn't set out with "good money" as my goal in life. I set out with "good work" as my goal.... The money part is taking care of itself.... just as long as I don't forget my main goal. The flat rate guys are, in reality, marching to the beat of a different drummer. We can't demand that they do something for free (other than the report cards... but there is always the chance of an "Easter egg" there....). BUT... would they be willing to step up to the plate and participate in any good-will efforts? Or am I all f@cked up thinking that "team effort" is anything more than a slogan? If my store is successful, then I will share in that success (and if the DP doesn't realize that, why would I stay?). But... the success of my store depends, in part, on me.... Some days you're the dog.... and some days you're the fire hydrant. You should thank me... I almost made you use dictionary.com again... but decided to keep it simple /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif On edit... that's "elucidate"... not "eludicate". Editting the the edit... it can be difficult to be seen as erudite /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 Quote: You should thank me... I almost made you use dictionary.com again... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Quote: Certainly, the flat rate pay system hasn't encouraged anyone to become charitable.... but the lack of charity is a problem with most of society in this brave, new world. Man Jim this is the exact reason I decided on an economics degree. The man who is revered as the father of modern capitalist economics, Adam Smith wrote about just this in the book The Wealth of Nations. Quote: It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. It is just this self interest that drives us to be more productive and produce a better product in less time for our customers. The "free work we do is because of some incentive we see in doing so, either positive or negative. The flat rate system has produced its intended results, a price system that incentivizes production of billable hours. I do not decide to perform some act of free work out of benevolence/charity, nor I bet do many other technicians. When I do perform such an act I do it to fulfill my duties as shop foreman, to curry favor with a superior, or to satisfy some other internal interest I may have. I have come to the belief through my short time on this planet (30 years) that there is no such thing as true benevolence. The charity work that is done by every human is done to serve their own interest, be it internal guilt, or some other factor. From my perspective this is not new, it is as it has always been. Sorry to hijack your hijacking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Jay... you are right... but you might be wrong, too.... In the shop, I try to do those little extras that do, indeed, "curry favour".... Be it a "word of mouth bonus" or to try to right some mystical "wrong" or to just set us apart from "the crowd". Yes... these acts are performed with "self-interest" in mind.... But thta's what they are designed to do... they set us apart from others. At the same time, there are those civilians that feel they are "owed" these little random acts. When I was self employed, I was often chastised for asking 50 cents for a few feet of wire by someone I had never sen before and knew I would never see again. I started stocking small bubble packs of wire and was criticised for trying to sell those. Obviously, wire was something I bought by the roll simply so I could give it away by the foot.... At the same time, one of our local food stores has a bin marked "Food Bank".... Every time I enter that store, I will pluck something from the shelf simply so I will have something to place in the "Food Bank" bin when I leave.... It might be a can of corn, a flat of cheap soup or a personal hygene product.. but it will be "something". This is one way that I have where I can give without expecting anything in return.... What it boils down to... "that which we sow is what we shall reap...". My random acts of charity in my shops name, should, in some way, benefit my shop. Random personal acts of charity to local charitable or community minded organizations are my little way of thanking Yahweh or Allah or Googly-Moogly or whatever deity for the fact that I can give to them rather than receive from them.... Sheeeit.... the curmudgeon DOES have a heart..... My cover is blown.... FWIW... when you receive "better than average" service from ANYONE... acknowledge it. By all means, if a gratuity is warranted... leave one. But if your experience has truly been exemplary (that might be todays word, boys and girls), mention it. People thrive on recognition.... and verbal acceptance is a powerful tool.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 11, 2008 Author Share Posted April 11, 2008 People thrive on recognition.... and verbal acceptance is a powerful tool.... Most often, a simple "Thank You" is sufficient and it means a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 I think we have all shown, that in fact we do go over and above what is the "NORM". Me myself could be the parts guy that stands at the counter with the "Deer in the headlights look" as most of you have seen but I like to get out in the shop and get dirty and see what you do, it helps me to help you and move trucks thru the shop quicker. I don't look for any accolades for it I just do it because its the right thing to do. I believe that we are all the same here in that case. As for Techs fighting for the .1 or .2 that gets cut... At Motor City the techs had a hard way to go, the S/M who by chance was also the owners son had a bad habit of doing exactly that. But yet the they really pushed for production and keeping labor(labour) hrs up. Hell I even had the S/M bitch at me for putting some wipers on a customers truck and not getting paid to do it.(WTF) Thats just Bullshit, Its just these small things that brings the customer back in to our shops. Why not do it???? Quote: Originally Posted By: Jim WarmanPeople thrive on recognition.... and verbal acceptance is a powerful tool.... Most often, a simple "Thank You" is sufficient and it means a lot. My drivers of which I have been thrust upon, had a person of which I won't name, and were looked down upon and degraded daily. Since I took over the job as well as my own, of keeping tabs on them during the runs. I make a point when they call in at each stop to say thanks for checking in, and the funny thing about it is that they actually work harder for me, and get the job done quicker. Pretty friggin cool, a little word like "Thanks" goes a long way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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