HHO Power

Keith Browning · May 29, 2008

This is interesting.

http://runacaronwater.synthasite.com/index.php

LARRY BRUDZYNSKI · May 29, 2008

Got that site, have ordered the book going to convert my Saturn if possible.

Jeff_ · May 29, 2008

kevin phillips · May 31, 2008

i've had one hooked up to my explorer for about a month now.still wondering if it's going to contaminate the oil any.i sent a sample in last week but it will probably take a while for it to get back.i'm running stainless plates in a 4 inch pvc pipe and a little baking soda and water.working good so far.check out this site http://www.water4gas.com

Keith Browning · May 31, 2008

Kevin, has it improved you mileage? I have a 2001 Explorer with the 5.0 HO in it and would love to boost my 15 MPG. the link you gave us looks to be the cheapest route but it looks to me like all they are selling is access to an on line books... no actual kits? Maybe I need to reread the site. How did you build your HHO Generator?

kevin phillips · June 1, 2008

The hho gen is really simple for a mechanic to do.yes it boosted my 4.0 engine about 8 mpg and i have a small system.the link i posted just sells you info on how to build one and be safe with it.A few of my freinds and i are testing some diffront versions to see how they are going to do.i used 10 stainless steel 3 inch squares.5 positive and 5 negative.just welded a strap down the sides to keep the 5 positive plates and 5 negative plates from touching each other.welded a stainless threaded rod to each side,one to positive one to negative plates and spaced them about a eight of a inch apart.i put the assembly in a 4 inch piece of pvc pipe and end caps sealed to the threaded rod on each side.the plates connected one side positive,one negative and cannot touch each other.i made a removable fill on top of the unit and also put a flashback arrester inline to the throttle body.just think of it as a battery as far as the plates are concerned.i added baking soda and water as my mixture and put fused power from the ignition switch to it.the gas it makes is very flammable and dangerous.i made the mistake of testing the mixture after i first started and i don't worry now about it burning good.it does work, however i still worry about the safety side of it far as the engine and the passengers but so far so good.

SteveS · June 18, 2008

Does that stream into ported vacuum? Or just in the intake duct between air filter and throttle body? Like the generator is running all the time that the key is on, producing hydrogen gas. Then when there is sufficient air flow it is drawn into the intake air stream, right? Is there any shut-down ritual needed where you turn it off a certain time before you stop the engine so that there is no residual gas when the engine is off? Have you noticed any change in the driveability? Is there a warm-up time before it starts working?

kevin phillips · June 19, 2008

I just have it tied into the intake tube at the throttle body.it dosen't build up enough pressure to worry about after shutdown and it can bleed back through the air filter.No real driveability problems so far but i have burnt up a few ballast resistors trying to lower the voltage to the unit and slow down production of the gas to a "safe" level.It does take a min or so before it gets going good.It's a project,is it perfect?no.I've been told it's using as much power as it's making by several but it does help on the fuel economy.I haven't had any explosions yet or engine problems running it on a explorer.The first oil sample tested good but it was two week old oil when i sent it to the lab.Trial and error i guess for now.It is fun and some guys i know are using mason jars and stainless steel wire.They do make alot of heat .The bigger the container the better and try to put it so airflow can get to it.Has anyone else played with one yet?

SteveS · June 20, 2008

My wife buys enough dog food that she buys directly from a distributor, 20+ bags at a time (AND she makes home-made food for almost half of their meals; that's all I'll say about that). The guy said that he added an HHO system to his Diesel Isuzu box van. On the initial trip across our pass while pulling a trailer (truck and trailer filled with products) he was able to pull 6 MPH faster. I was talking to him at a dog show and he didn't have time to show me the system. He had not done the math on the fuel consumption yet. That is pretty respectable on something shaped like a brick with about 2/3 as much engine as it should have.

Edit: If you are seeing increased economy and he is seeing increased power it seems like there is a strong indication that it creates more energy than it consumes. So, then it seems to come down to how much it costs to make and whether it does any long term harm.

kevin phillips · June 21, 2008

The cost was around 60 bucks.Scrapyard stainless and free pvc scrap from a customer.The long term is one of my concerns but i did use the spare vehicle.I have heard of some diesel usage but not as much around here.My wife wants one on her stang but i'm putting it off for now. Most of the guys on here have some stainless egr coolers i'd say but good luck cutting on them.I tried one lol.DAMN HARD STUFF!!!on the outside anyway.

GregH · June 22, 2008

Ummm, guys, can we think about the chemistry of this setup for a moment? You're taking water and electrolysising it to break the hydrogen-oxygen bond - H2O into H2 and O2 - then porting these gasses into the intake stream. Hydrogen gas is flammable, so the flame in each cylinder is larger and hotter. More power with less gasoline... Nice..

Except for this - what do you get when you ignite a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen? Water and heat. So, you are taking water, cracking the bonds, then recombining it back to water. Where does the heat come from? It comes from the electricity it took to electrolysise the water. Which comes from the battery, alternator, and then crankshaft torque... It's kinda like taking a rubber band, and wrapping it around the crankshaft. As the rubber band untwists, it applies an additional torque to the crankshaft. It automatically rewinds itself from the driveshaft...

You're not getting anything "extra." The mileage boost may be coming from a number of things - paying closer attention to fuel consumption and power may cause you to lift your foot more often, or a net decrease in potential energy in the battery? But in reality the benefit from the hydrogen generator is non-existant. You are starting with water, and ending with water.

Hydrogen power has been around since cars were first put onto the road... Every time there is a significant increase in fuel price, this type of product makes a comeback... Kinda like the magnets you attatch to the fuel line...

If this product were so simple and the benefit was so great, wouldn't you think vehicle manufactureres would put this into place to increase their CAFE?

However, people are seeing a real increase in fuel economy. That's the bottom line... So, I suppose it doesn't really matter where the fuel economy increase is coming from.. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting something for nothing with the hydrogen generator....

DamageINC · June 23, 2008

That may be somewhat the case, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt that he's seeing an 8mpg increase simply because he's being more cautious with throttle application and driving style.

Dave

kevin phillips · June 23, 2008

I drive the same as always,no cutting off at stops,no easy ride on it at all.I have been told almost that same thing by several very smart individuals i respect here locally but if it works it works.I'm not selling them and have very little in mine and it does help in my opinion.Try one and see what you think just for fun.I'm not a scientist or the smartest,just a humble mechanic with a open mind with fuel prices as high as they are. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif

BrunoWilimek · June 24, 2008

I have a question. What happens to the water in the system when the temperature drops below freezing, as can(and does)happen in most of Canada at least 6 months of the year? Is this a warm weather only system?

kevin phillips · June 24, 2008

My system hasen't seen a winter yet. I'm going to add some additives to it or just drain it daily and refill in the mornings with the same mixture that was taken out. I have a old radiator drain i might put into it if i need to. I only add a small portion of baking soda and the rest is water .I'm not sure if the soda would have an effect on the freezing point and how much.We don't have any long periods of below freezing temps here but it might be a problem up there.

DamageINC · June 24, 2008

I understand that some people use salt instead, and IIRC, salt water doesn't freeze at nearly the same temperature that unsalted water does. I could be waaaaaay wrong though, for some reason that just sticks out in my head.

Dave

dieseldoc · June 28, 2008

My dad owns a courier service and one of his drivers has done a lot of research on this stuff. He also has a system on one of his cars, it doubled his mileage and helped with the throttle response. He says it is supposed to work on diesels as well. He was asking me about it. I have started looking into this a little. I am a skeptic, but am intrigued. This will be an interesting topic to keep going and see what we come up with. I am going to look into this some more, than maybe try it on a few diesels and see what it does. I will be sure to let everyone know what we find.

Keith Browning · June 28, 2008

If this product were so simple and the benefit was so great, wouldn't you think vehicle manufacturers would put this into place to increase their CAFE?

You would think. But if hydrogen is capable of running an engine on it's own then why not start producing hydrogen fuel cell cars for the masses? Good point. There is likely more to it than that. And to interject some nonsense into the topic, isn't there some story floating around that some time ago, maybe back in the 70's a man had begun developing a hydrogen engine and was murdered? Ooooh I love urban myths!

I found this which is interesting

Quote:

I like to share some interesting videos to discuss why alternative fuel takes so long to develop.

Why depend on Oil? Heard about Global Warming? Heard about Going Green? Heard about saving our planet?

There is no need to depend on petrol or diesel to run a car.

Look at the oil company's astonishing profits with their endless hikes that the world of consumers can do nothing about.

Hydrogen is said to be too difficult to produce such that it is not viable economically. But how can anyone explain the videos I shall be showing you ?

Water Car : many years ago (about 20), a philipino engineer found a way to dehydrolyse water to get hydrogen to power the engine. He talks about the numerous hurdles he encountered and political aspects relating to the use of alternative energy.

here's the link:

1. Part 1 :

2. Part 2 :

Murdered alternative fuel inventor from the USA. He also talked to USA government officials and proven his water car by using it himself for many years without any petrol. Are oil companies too powerful? :

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCrP3ulZlQ

For more on this invention , search for 'Stan Meyer'.

video related to use of Hydrogen to power the car (no batteries charging required!):

even your favorite car review show Top Gear has talked about it. The future is Hydrogen:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPqYYtWIJU

Further links to learn how to power your car on water / hydrogen (they are related):

The idea to take home with you is that a car need not run on oil.

Its Perception that makes one think so.

The world is a very smartly controlled place.

GregH · June 28, 2008

Using salt or some other electrolyte in your water will speed up the reaction - this is because pure water doesn't conduct electricity very well at all, and salt water conducts better.

However, be careful with your mixtures... Regular table salt, NaCl, will produce chlorine gas along with the oxygen. Also, some of the liberated hydrogen will want to cling to the chlorine atoms, and make a little hydrochloric acid. So, your container needs to be able to handle this..

But since you've got to design your rig to withstand acid anyway, why not use sulfuric acid? H2SO4 is almost as cheap as salt, and it has the benefit of not producing chlorine gas, and has no competing ions for the hydrogen to bond to. Your reaction efficiency will go up, and your harmful byproducts will go down. The remainder after the reaction would be a quantity of sulphur dioxide which, other than smelling like rotten eggs, is pretty much harmless.

But what is the real goal here? To get from point A to point B as cheaply as possible... It's all about energy storage... Here's a few facts for you...

1 - The energy density of hydrogen in ideal circumstances is about 1/4th the density of gasoline

2 - The energy density of lithium polymer batteries is higher than hydrogen, but not by much.

3 - Gasoline has about 33 KWhrs of energy per gallon.

4 - It takes about 1.58 KWhrs of energy to move an internal combustion powered car one mile.

5 - All but about .3 KWhrs of the energy above is wasted. The energy that actually hits the pavement over one mile is about .3 KWhrs.

So, we're wasting about 80% of the gasoline we put in our tanks. If we switch to hydrogen, and burn it in generally the same way, we'll still lose about 80%. Interncal combustion sucks...

Fuel cells are better - They take fuel and turn it into electricity. The electricity is then turned into kinetic energy through an electric motor. Total losses in this type of system are about 60%. Better than IC, but still poor. Add to the fact that to store 33KWhrs of energy in the form of hydrogen will require 4 gallons of volume in the vehicle, and not one like gasoline..

Batteries anyone? It seems that battery technology changes daily, but as far as I can tell sodium-ion batteries are the best. I couldn't find any mass/volume ratios, so I'll convert gasoline back to mass. For every pound of gasoline in a vehicle, there is about 5KWhrs of energy. The best batteries (sodium ion) can hold about .2KWhrs of energy per pound. Energy efficiency from battery to pavement is about 90%.

Gasoline efficiency from tank to pavement is about 20% - makes for 1KWhr to the pavement per pound of gasoline. Battery is about .18KWhr on the pavement per pound of battery.

Add in the range improvement from regenerative braking, plus the weight savings of not having nearly as large an engine, transmission, radiator, EVAP gear, and other whatnot, and the fact that batteries don't lose weight when discharging (elimination the design constraint of having to allow for as much fluctuation in vehicle weight) and I would say that it is possible to retrofit an existing vehicle into an electric and not lose anything in performance. A vehicle designed ffrom the ground up to be electric would trounce all over a gasoline equivalent....

Unfortunately, there is the cost....

Batteries are expensive...

But that will be a topic for another day...

GregH · June 28, 2008

Sweeeet! Nice find, Keith...

Reads much like the Newman motor - although the government hasn't bumped him off, yet.

wikipedia has a nice article about Meyer. A little dry, perhaps, and they do tend to edit out a lot of the conspiracy stuff (unfortunately), but some really good information.

Speaking of conspiracies and stuff, if any of you have access to "coast to coast AM," I highly recommend giving it a listen. This dude, George Noory, hosts a 4 hour radio program every night starting at around midnight. They've got all manner of conspiracies, crazies, government plots, you name it. Anyone remember the book (and movie) The Philadelphia Experiment? Well, they had someone on the radio program who was actually there and witnessed the proceedings. He helped to design some of the hardware and explained how some of it worked. You know what's funny, though, is that with my scientific background, I could understand much of what he was talking about - and it was scientifically accurate...

Interesting stuff...

I'm sure the radio program is available online as an .mp3 - probably for free....

SteveS · June 30, 2008

Speaking of conspiracies and stuff, if any of you have access to "coast to coast AM," I highly recommend giving it a listen. This dude, George Noory, hosts a 4 hour radio program every night starting at around midnight. They've got all manner of conspiracies, crazies, government plots, you name it.

I used to have a night shift job and listened to Art Bell, the originator (I believe) of "Coast to Coast". They really have some interesting guests. We had a night security guard that believed everything he heard on that show; and had a map of world destruction to prove it. The date came and went and the world didn't end.

Through that show I learned of the UFO and Paranormal Expo . My gf at the time had a passing interest in UFOs, so we went. WOW; I never realized that I was so "normal". There were some genuinely odd people there. Picked up a Tee shirt "Shift Happens: New Paradigms Emerge". Wore it to my shooting club for a pistol match and got a few looks and comments. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif