Something that bothered the hell out of me.

[Aaron]

I am a fairly silent moderator at http://www.fordpowerstrokeforums.com

 

I recently participated in THIS post:

Quote:

Bought the Triple Dog Downloader from Bully Dog and installed it with the Outlook Monitor back in '04. While back the wife took the truck in for an oil change while I was underway (Navy), how sweet of her. However, the truck wasn't flashed to stock first. Couple tanks later it donned on me that the MPG dropped from 18.5/24 to 12/15 (stock). No problem, just gotta reflash it right. So my Triple Dog informs me that I have to "unload" (flash to stock) before downloading the most recent update. So I do, but the truck is probably already stock. I then download the update and go reflash the truck. During the countdown to "initialize" everything in the truck starts flashing rapidly when the count gets to 4. It continues to count down to 1 and freezes there, truck still wiggin out. Been troubleshooting with Bully Dog for two weeks now. Reflashed it to stock about a dozen times with different files they've e-mailed me. Recently tried their "recovery" flash and still same indications. When I turn the ignition to on everything keeps repeatedly resetting, and when I turn the key the power keeps flashing like a relay is grounding. Finally, today I figured maybe God would send some luck so I try the key again while monitoring DTCs. Now I have a P0603. I know its ICM KAM Error. I'm betting that the power flashing has burnt/fried the memory. Is there something I can do before going to the stealership and getting ripped off at $85 for a mechanic to check it?

I replied to this with the following:

Quote:

So what you're saying, is you think that what happened is the missus took the truck for a LOF at the Ford store.

 

And you are also saying you figure they reflashed your PCM while it was there?

 

Why do you think they would have reflashed your PCM when your truck was in for an oil change? I know I don't get paid to do stuff for free, and the LAST thing I'd be doing when I'm doing a .5 to .7 LOF on a big truck where I've gotta grease about 350 fittings, pour 14 litres of oil, and top up all the fluids, plus set any low tires to the proper factory spec, after waiting 10 minutes to get in the truck bay.

 

Especially since a WARRANTY reflash pays .4, and it takes about a half hour. It'll reflash the TCM, PCM, and FICM all at once.

 

And I would also imagine the dealer has a fastlane guy slinging oil and filters.

 

And you're not getting RIPPED OFF at the dealer. The dealer has the specific tools and trained technicians to properly diagnose your problem.

 

Mr. Chan replied as follows:

 

Quote:

COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!!!

 

 

And it's these kind of meatballs that look for free advice that give me a very bad taste in my mouth. If you chose to modify your vehicle with aftermarket electronics, to enhance its performance there are associated risks that come with using tuners and such. It's just like buying a used vehicle. CAVEAT EMPTOR. I for one, will be the first person who's more than willing to help in any situation where I feel I could be of some assistance to someone in need. However, I do not appreciate being referred to as an "$85 rip off mechanic at the stealership" like you describe. Where I also draw the line is when I get these outside "garages" calling me up for free information and they've gotten in over their head after they've soaked the customer with about $3,000 in unecessary work, and I'm expected to able to "help" get them out of THEIR mess for FREE? And with all that said, people who have the attitude that I am "ripping them off" are the kind that really piss me off!!! The sad truth about this, is more often than not, it would've been cheaper for the customer to have brought it into the dealer in the first place!!! This combined with the added stress that we now face, wondering whether or not we are going to be paid, after we carry out a repair under warranty repair!!!

 

Back on topic. The pinpoint test for P0603 is very strightforward. Check to make sure you have 12 volts to the proper PCM connections. If all checks out good, more than likely you've fried your PCM. Now pay up, or park your ride.

A couple more moderators replied as well as a couple other members:

 

Quote:

 

WAAAAAAAA I don't know what I'm doing could you fix it for free ?

 

Only rip off here is the stripped nut behind the wheel.

 

Quote:

I see it all the time i will not go to the phone to answer a carquest lost dog i f.up, will you bail me out.

paid to much for my knowledge on these engines to give what i know away for free. don't f.with a rattle snake unless you can handle it's bite.

So, the thread got locked by another moderator.

 

I then am cruising around on that forum, and I slide over to the moderator break room forum. I then see the following post.

 

The title is "If We Could...."

 

Quote:

Not insult the Members. I know some of them may not be the brightest bulbs on the string, but we are staff and should refrain from openly telling them what a genetic misfire they are and they really are too stupid to own their truck. Thanks

So, I look this over, mull it over in my mind for a few moments, and came up with this:

 

Quote:

Figured that I'd better chime in here.

 

It didn't really get under your skin that he basically said "Fuckers at the dealership reflashed my PCM when they did my oil change?"

 

That post rubbed me the wrong way after a particularly shitty day. He was the recipient of the rage that I couldn't unleash on a customer.

 

When a guy comes on a public forum and publicly berates someone that does the SAME work as you, doesn't that bother you?

 

I know I don't go around flashing PCMs and FICMs any time I feel like it. It's a waste of my time, the customer's time, and the dealership's time.

 

Every time a small garage calls your dealership and you're the only diesel guy in the parts room, do you rush to the phone to help them sort out their fuck-up? Because I know I don't. I'm busy enough with my own shit, I don't want to have to sort everyone else's out for free.

 

I have no problem helping people, but when you openly admit you've done something, and fucked up large, and try and pass the blame off on someone who likely has MANY more qualifications than you do, it bothers the hell outta me.

 

Today, at the parts counter:

 

Parts guy puts the phone down, and says

"Is there a common coolant leak under the intake on a 6.0?"

 

Me: "Yep, why?"

 

Him: "Shop on the phone wants to know"

 

Well, if he isn't competent enough to find a coolant leak, should he be fixing it? I think not.

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I mean come on. Accuse someone that has the same training I doing something to your truck, and then you try and load an aftermarket programmer, fuck the PCM, and cry to the Ford techs for help?

 

He then states that he doesn't want to get "ripped off" by a mechanic. Do you consider the work that you do "ripping off" a customer? The main reason that people send stuff to you is because they either A: have had it to several different shops, and paid several thousands of dollars to not have the problem fixed, or B: They trust the training and workmanship done by a professional institution like the dealership. I don't like seeing shit like this happen, mainly because the dealer gets a bad rap for everything they do, either good or bad.

 

I'd bet the $85 an hour "Stealer" wouldn't have flashed his PCM for free. I didn't do 4 years of trade school and apprenticeship, spend tens of thousands of dollars on tools, do HOURS and HOURS of specialized training to give shit away for free, or be called a thief.

 

Would you have?

 

Do you guys think I'm wrong here?

[DwayneGorniak]

Nope! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif This guy sounds like an uneducated Ralph.

[Keith Browning]

Do you guys think I'm wrong here?

 

Depends on where you are looking at it I suppose. This is exactly why I cannot participate in public forums much anymore as I just can't take this kind of stupid shit for the very reasons described throughout your post. I like Mike's post as it really hit the nail on the head then in a seemingly manic moment, did a 180 and offered advice. Brilliant! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

And since I don't venture out much anymore it's interesting to see the various forums we all visit. I hope you Gents extend invites to the DTS when you run across other Ford techs. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

As a site owner I can understand not wanting your moderators "insult" the other members and I would have also sent a message to those who show disrespect to others by dishing out insults like "Is there something I can do before going to the Stealerships and getting ripped off at $85 for a mechanic to check it?" Most public diesel forums have a few technicians who hang out there that offer advice and assistance. Knowing that, I am amazed that these jackasses continue to make these statements that change the mood of the entire forum and it seems to go largely unchecked. It says a lot about a forum that doesn't truly moderate the conduct of all it's members.

 

If you are going to have a constructive discussion in your Moderator Break Room perhaps you could encourage this practice. Otherwise, if anyone is allowed to direct insults why should you be expected to curb your responses when they are directed at you, directly or indirectly? This is usually when groups of people begin migrating to other forums. Let me know where you land, maybe I will join you.

[Aaron]

I like the water over here.

[Aaron]

Nope! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif This guy sounds like an uneducated Ralph.

Ain't that one of them Ox-Moron things? (oxymoron) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

 

Edit:

This should be my next post:

 

Quote:

Youze fuckers need me to send Uncle Keith and Grampy Jim over here to straighten you out?

You guys hafta excuse my language here, kinda worked up about this.

[mchan68]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one in that same boat. Things have gotten so bad at my shop, that 9 times out of 10, I don't even bother answering my page for phone calls anymore. I find it interesting that Aaron would start a thread about this topic. Luckily, one of our SA has taken to "screening" all my phone calls. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was on one job where I had the high pressure oil rail removed on an E-series (for an injector I think). I got paged to take a call. It was one of "those" calls. Got back to my job, buttoned up the valve cover, started reinstalling the CAC and inlet hoses, and there I see all nine of those TX-30 bolts for the rail sitting on my bench laughing at me. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

[mchan68]

I am a fairly silent moderator at http://www.fordpowerstrokeforums.com

Well, Aaron your post was what "broke" MY silence. I had read, and reread, and reread that post the whole day, intending on chewing that guy a new asshole. The only reason I didn't was because I felt as though I'd be stooping to HIS level by doing so. But then, after reading your reply, was when it all set in, and I had to "unleashe".

Originally Posted By: Aaron

Figured that I'd better chime in here.

 

It didn't really get under your skin that he basically said "Fuckers at the dealership reflashed my PCM when they did my oil change?"

 

That post rubbed me the wrong way after a particularly shitty day. He was the recipient of the rage that I couldn't unleash on a customer.

 

When a guy comes on a public forum and publicly berates someone that does the SAME work as you, doesn't that bother you?

 

I know I don't go around flashing PCMs and FICMs any time I feel like it. It's a waste of my time, the customer's time, and the dealership's time.

 

Every time a small garage calls your dealership and you're the only diesel guy in the parts room, do you rush to the phone to help them sort out their fuck-up? Because I know I don't. I'm busy enough with my own shit, I don't want to have to sort everyone else's out for free.

 

I have no problem helping people, but when you openly admit you've done something, and fucked up large, and try and pass the blame off on someone who likely has MANY more qualifications than you do, it bothers the hell outta me.

 

Today, at the parts counter:

 

Parts guy puts the phone down, and says

"Is there a common coolant leak under the intake on a 6.0?"

 

Me: "Yep, why?"

 

Him: "Shop on the phone wants to know"

 

Well, if he isn't competent enough to find a coolant leak, should he be fixing it? I think not.

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I mean come on. Accuse someone that has the same training I doing something to your truck, and then you try and load an aftermarket programmer, fuck the PCM, and cry to the Ford techs for help?

 

He then states that he doesn't want to get "ripped off" by a mechanic. Do you consider the work that you do "ripping off" a customer? The main reason that people send stuff to you is because they either A: have had it to several different shops, and paid several thousands of dollars to not have the problem fixed, or B: They trust the training and workmanship done by a professional institution like the dealership. I don't like seeing shit like this happen, mainly because the dealer gets a bad rap for everything they do, either good or bad.

 

I'd bet the $85 an hour "Stealer" wouldn't have flashed his PCM for free. I didn't do 4 years of trade school and apprenticeship, spend tens of thousands of dollars on tools, do HOURS and HOURS of specialized training to give shit away for free, or be called a thief.

 

Would you have?

Pay me the diag, and after that, it's go/no go for launch, simple as that!!!

Originally Posted By: Aaron

Do you guys think I'm wrong here?

 

NO!!!

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Quote:

Quote:

Youze fuckers need me to send Uncle Keith and Grampy Jim over here to straighten you out?

Aaron, You forgot a few how about Dwayne he's always good for giving out the tongue lashings /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif, and then don't forget about Bruce he'll kill-em with politeness and knowledge.....
Oh yeah and then there's me, I'd just make fun out of him /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/poke.gif

[Tony302600]

This is rediculous. And in the end. The customer spend's Thousands of dollars at the Indy shop, comes to us for the $130 ICP sensor that fixes it. And we are still the stealership. We are still the assholes that rip customers off to big-headed retards.

 

Yesterday I went on a test drive with a big headed customer, listened to him, listened to his rant about how the indy shop took 3 weeks and $4,000 to figure out an int. surge. HPP pumps, HP oil rails, oil cooler, egr cooler. I just sat and let him vent. I asked, why he didn't bring the truck to us, he said the indy shop said Ford Dealers were hacks." I hooked it up to IDS, got the P2285, told him all he needed was a ICP sensor and rec. doing the connecter,XXX amount of dollars (under $500 ) His mouth dropped and then i said, you didn't need all that other stuff. He turned Red ok'd it and last i heard he sued the indy shop.

[Aaron]

They speak!

 

Quote:

Ok first off take a step back and breath. I have been doing this job for a bit over 14 years, and what that has taught me foremost is you will never make ever customer happy. There are assholes everywhere and this just happens to be one of them. Is he a fucktard....yes. Should he own his truck....no. Should his father worn a condom....yes. Listen you weren't far off in what you said, however as a staff member you are held to different standard and can't just tell some douche bag user to f... himself. There has to tact in you vernacular. As staff we are all held to a higher standard and to help the members. I get paid the same way do and have to work on the same p.o.s. trucks and vans so I see where your coming from and agree ripping people off is never cool, but like indy shops, there are snakes in the grass at dealers too. I know, I replaced one. As for indy shops calling me...........that doesn't happen. They know better. They have all already been informed tech questions are not free.

 

My reply:

 

Quote:

In my own defense, I never told the guy to go fuck himself. I thought I did a fairly good job at getting my point across without specifically calling the guy a moron.

 

I guess nobody on this forum knows me in person, but this was probably the most tactful I've been able to reply to something that's made me that hot in a long time.

 

You shoulda been the fly on my toolbox today when I did my first booster hose recall on a 4x4 F-series.

 

And to be honest, reading it back over again, I think that I did a fairly good job of NOT blowing up at this guy. No name calling, or swearing in my post.

 

Like a number of people have said - after the independant shop or customer has squandered thousands of dollars of the customer's money and wasted time and parts - THEN they send it to the 'stealer' to get the truck diagnosed. "Oh, it needs an ICP sensor" or "Oh, it needs a .5 reflash."

 

I personally treat those with the same respect they dish out. If you call me an asshole, or a thief, or a moron? You better have either the evidence to back it up, or the brass to get back the same attitude that you've given me.

 

Not trying to make any enemies here, I like the staff members here, but sometimes, you just get pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and finally, there's a snap.

 

A buddy of mine has all the advisors 'Screen' his calls - he is the only diesel guy at their shop, and has to deal with all the shit calls all the time. Regardless of weather or not tech calls are not free, people still try.

 

Why can't we just all get along?

[Jim Warman]

Aaron.. as shop foreman and having the dubious honour of possessing a "full plaque"... I am the "guy".... I try to make them take messages and I'll get back to those that I need to get back to.... some sooner than others, if ya know what I mean....

 

That system works well for about a half day at a time....

 

The other (and to a degree) more insidious problem is "walk ins"... And this would make a whole new thread...

[Aaron]

My favorite is the guy that wanders into the shop with a part in his hand.

 

Once at the small garage I used to work at, this guy came in with the little round plug that you find in older transmissions for the first service, the line plug that goes in the dipstick hole?

 

I see him wander in, and cut into his path while he's walking up to the boss. I say "Whatcha got there?"

 

He replies: "I was doing a trans filter and found this in the pan?"

 

My reply: "Where's the other one?"

 

he goes - "there was only one?"

 

I get this real worried look on my face and go "Oh man, that's not good!" and walk away. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

[Keith Browning]

THAT is freakin funny! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

[SteveS]

This response is from a tech with 30+ years experience, regardless of where the experience was gained. Are you with me so far? More than half of my time on the line has been at a dealership, and although working at an indy shop right now I am still insulted by "stealership".

 

Point 1: "while I was underway (Navy)" earns the guy extra slack. Unless you have done it you have no perspective to criticize. If you have, THANK YOU! We are typically unappreciative of the people that assure our freedom. I take every opportunity I have to show appreciation to military personel (yes, I put my money where my mouth is).

 

Point 2: It is difficult, with our experience and knowledge, to put ourselves in our customer's shoes. The guy knows that the truck was working OK when he left and it was not when he returned. What he sees as different is that the wife took the truck in for an oil change.

 

Point 3: There actually are people at dealerships that screw customers. Just like there are people at independant shops that screw customers. I have worked at dealerships where there were merchandisers who "found" necessary repairs that just happened to be gravy jobs. All the time. Exclusively. When the actual problem that brought the customer in to the shop "was not happening during the testing".

 

As a tech that is now hearing how the dealership did not treat a customer right I take any chance to inform the owner that the dealer techs are limited in what they can do. When I tell a customer that the technician won't get paid if Ford does not think the repair was needed they are surprised; they seem to think the tech is all-powerful and makes the decision to deny the customer his rightful coverage. And let's face it, Service Advisors are usually interested in moving on to a better paying job, too, aren't they?(as are some techs) Isn't this the customer's link to the dealership?

 

In my experience many of the dealership SAs are not mechanically inclined, they are salesmen. In the indy world it seems to be more common that the person with which the customer has contact has shop experience. In my last dealership life, a shop that had about 30 techs and (as I recall) 7 Advisors, the advisor with the most shop experience had moved up from a lube-tech position. (In my early days it seemed like toward the end of a mechanic's career he would write service, move up to management. It does not seem to happen that way now.) By necessity the emphisis is on sales, not figuring out the problem or helping the customer understand the complexities fo warranty coverage and aftermarket systems.

 

I guess the bottom line of the point that I'm driving at is that we should put ourselves in the position of the customer. I am fortunate that presently I can do that and not loose money (and I realize that that thought process can be costly in some cicumstances). And the costomer needs to be open minded, too!

[SteveS]

OK, I thought about what I posted over a cup of coffee and realized that it may sound like I am criticizing Aaron's response. I'm not. I didn't see anything in what he told the guy that was not a dose of reality. I am just attempting to see the situation from a customer's view. They judge us, the technicians, by how the SA handles their transaction, and how the factory supports the warranty. Their perspective might be influenced by previous bad experience with a tech that didn't care about them. Auto repair horror stories certainly have a larger audience now with the internet than they had when simply discussed among friends. But they also need to be able to communicate with respect and consideration, especially when they might be at fault!

 

I do have some experience as a warranty customer (automotive and otherwise) and I try to interact with the service personel as I would want a customer to approach me. On the occasions when I received a survey if I felt like I was treated well I returned it with a 100% grade. If I was dissatisfied then I wouldn't return it; I'm willing to see that a job might go bad and (as a tech) I wouldn't want to get whacked because of something that was out of my control. Although in one situation my silence did have a bitter taste; at a dealership where I had several poor-result visits and I did not send in a (true) bad survey the store received the President's Award.

[Keith Browning]

Steve you are not off base here but this topic confirms to me that there is a large showing of anti-dealer sentiment that continues to grow and many of us are getting tired of it. Yeah, we know that there are the good and bad techs, dealers and independents. Bottom line it's uncalled for. If a "consumer" has a bad experience I don't blame him for feeling the way he does but derogatory comments directed at us in general are as I just stated, uncalled for. For the most part I do not see many of us retaliating in m any of the public forums. On occasion we might play around with a guy or allow ourselves to strike back at personal attacks. What you don't see is us using terms degrading and insulting people... for whatever reason. I try to stay neutral in these things and I will say it is VERY hard to do that and continue to give advice. It is the rest of the people you come across that genuinely appreciate your help that makes me stick around a forum. They don't have to agree with me, or even thank me but at least they know enough to be respectful and not toss insults at people they don't know. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

[mchan68]

Yes, Keith I know it was a little "excessive" on my part to use the term "meatball" in my original reply that Aaron copied and pasted in this thread. What got under my skin was how this poster had the nerve to come to a public forum, accusing the dealer for reflashing his PCM, when his wife brought his truck in for an oil change, and then going on to ask for "help" from the very same people he bashed with his "$85 an hour rip-off mechanic" comment. THAT, was what spoke very loudly and clearly of this guy, and most guys attitude that you can see when you make eye contact with them as they are interacting with you.

[Brad Clayton]

I think the dude needs to get himself one of these.

 

 

Problem solved. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[SteveS]

They don't have to agree with me, or even thank me but at least they know enough to be respectful and not toss insults at people they don't know.

AMEN! Fair enough! It is unfair to group all technicians (choose the subject of the topic: Dealership or Independant) as crooks.

 

I like the DLC chastity belt, too! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

[Keith Browning]

Ironically that picture came from one of "those people" at the Diesel Stop. Personally I think that anyone who goes that far has issues /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif like maybe the owner needs a reflash. He was nice enough to let me take the photo... yes, I asked.