How far do YOU go??

[Jim Warman]

I was gong to post this the other night as a reply to the "Broadcast message..." thread. But this would just hi-jack it...

 

In the same vein as simply replacing an IPR with a holed screen, I want to add the subject of head gaskets....

 

While we have some pretty detailed and succinct TSBs to cover our actions - what in Gods name do we do when faced with a truck that is nearing the end of it's warranty life (let's pick on early builds since some of these are about to pass the 5 year mark)...

 

The concern is white smoke and coolant loss... The thing smokes at idle and the degas bottle cap looks like it is growing a cauliflower... Do you spend a week taking this thing apart and putting it back together - knowing you are going to wind up doing head gaskets anyway? Or do you just cut to the chase and give it the "full meal deal" of head gaskets and both coolers.

 

We are having discussions about this (along with the ridiculous turn around times the TSB method gives) and I'd like to know how other shops are dealing with this...

[Steve Mutter]

You rise a good point, it is a moral dilemma,I have had one that had a egr cooler let go,so I was doing the tsb to a tee and the part were it has you test the oil cooler it did not fail,I replaced both coolers any way and re road tested,cooling system did not go over holding perssure,now did I fix the truck?maybe or will it come back in a month or so blowing the rad cap off? maybe. it realy is a hard question to answer becuase there are so many variable, but to kind of answer your question we try to follow the tsb with in reason, it is hard to tell the cust it might be 1 day or it might be 3 or 4 days or even longer if it needs heads, so far if the truck is smokeing bad we tell the cust we have to do the coolers first and then see if it goes over holding perssure after, and if it does will have to take the heads off and inspect, so if they needed the truck right away the could re book for the headgaskets,I don't know if this is the best way to deal with coolant loss? but I to would like to hear how other shops are dealing with this

[Keith Browning]

Lemme ask this: What did you do before the most recent asinine TSB was issued? Jim, from the years of interacting with you on the Internet I can tell that you know what you are doing, can properly diagnose these engines and are also mindful of not performing un-necessary repairs. You know how to fix trucks, you know how to "fix customers" and now you have to learn to fix the manufacturer. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif You could be torquing the heads while the prior-approval is printing out. The problem is there are going to be some trucks that are so screwed up that you are going to have no choice but to follow the procedure. Maybe.

 

Which probably brings us right back to your question.

 

Okay, I'll stick my neck out. When I get one of these I do as much pre-disassembly diagnostics as I can to get as good of an indication of that I am dealing with. The tear down process provides us with the opportunity to bench test the EGR cooler as well as the oil cooler for a restriction. Remember to gently warm the cooler with a hand held torch because some only leak when hot. More than once I have seen bad coolers pass a bench test because they are cold! Perhaps an article on that is warranted because if you don't do it right you can fool yourself and flunk a good cooler. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Post repair verification includes another hard road test and another data recording of EOT and ECT PIDS. I have yet to replace all three (head gaskets, oil cooler or EGR cooler) in one repair and not a singe repeat repair.

[mchan68]

Post repair verification includes another hard road test and another data recording of EOT and ECT PIDS. I have yet to replace all three (head gaskets, oil cooler or EGR cooler) in one repair and not a singe repeat repair.

 

 

 

 

 

So, far I've been fortunate. ALL but only ONE truck so far has only needed heads. And this truck had only just had the EGR cooler replaced less than two weeks ago at White Oak (or is that White Joke?) Ford/Lincoln, before it landed on my doorstep needing heads and BOTH coolers.

 

The rest have all only needed either only the EGR or both coolers. And so far, NONE have come back. Mind you, I always request authorization from the customer to drive the vehicle home after the repair, in order to burn off all the residual coolant left in the exhaust system.

 

BTW, I know this may sound like a stupid question, but I'm assuming that EVERYONE here replaces that oil screen under the cooler, whenever you have it out, RIGHT?

[2006]

If the truck or van is under warranty and it smokes or I see coolant stains all over the resevoir, I replace the egr cooler, oil cooler and head gaskets all at the same time. I don't bother testing coolers, but I say I do. Once I replaced everything, I know that engine is good for a long, long time and I feel confident that the repair is going to last. If you follow the tsb's, Ford has to pay the claim.

 

You may call me a butcher or hacker for replacing everything, but I know I did my best and gave the customer some confidence that their truck is not going to smoke again. Also, doing it all at 1 time is cheaper for Ford than doing it 2 times. I think Ford should be thanking me for doing it this way.

 

 

If its retail, I only do whats needed and give the customer the option if they want to go further.

[eastendpowerstroke]

Quote:

Once I replaced everything, I know that engine is good for a long, long time and I feel confident that the repair is going to last.

It wasn't good for a "good long time" the first time, the only thing I'm sure of is that I did a good job after that I'm at the mercy of the parts I've installed, I've had an "new" EGR cooler fail after two days in service.

Quote:

If you follow the tsb's, Ford has to pay the claim.

OH NO IT DOESN'T ask anybody here if they have had a claimed TSB bounce for no apparent reason.

Quote:

You may call me a butcher or hacker for replacing everything, but I know I did my best and gave the customer some confidence that their truck is not going to smoke again.

Your not hacking or butchering your simply hedging your bets on a job that didn't pay enough the first time to get it done right and avoiding other common failures with the 100% certainty that the next claim wont bounce for a repeat repair.

Quote:

Also, doing it all at 1 time is cheaper for Ford than doing it 2 times. I think Ford should be thanking me for doing it this way.

FIRTFT(fix it right the first time) That is the sermon we were preached for years. anybody else remember that????
Now adays it's fix it right the first time unless it costs money then we will make a TSB to try to fix it as cheap as possible so we can short you diag time. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif
I feel the only person that should be making decisions on what is or isn't needed to perform a repair is the guy with his hands in the batter,he can look and touch things and see that it's good or not, not a voice on the phone or computer screen. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

[2006]

The engine wasn't good the first time, but a lot of parts were updated. Head bolt torque was revised for a reason...

 

I agree that parts can fail. I've had my share of that. Thats out of your control if a part fails. The majority of parts I find, are o.k.

 

I agree that a tsb can get bounced. The dealer has different avenues to appeal that bounced tsb. If you don't follow a tsb nowdays, the claim is sure to get bounced. If you follow it to the letter, Ford has to pay at the end. They may ask a few questions, but all you did was follow their instructions that they wrote. You can't be blamed for that.

 

 

On another note, if you just replaced a failed egr and oil cooler and then road tested it to find the coolant pressure reaches about 10 psi, do you take it apart again and replace the head gaskets or do you let the truck go? 10 psi is under the Ford tsb specs, so if you follow the tsb, you let the truck go. But, did you road test it with a loaded trailer, uphill under extended boost?

 

All I can tell you is that when I replace everything, including the head gaskets, my coolant pressure has a hard time just to reach 2 psi, uphill under extended boost. This all assumes that the trucks not chipped!

[Jeff_]

This is a sticky topic, and I doubt there is a right or wrong answer. We all know that even the current incarnation of the tsb, while better than its predecessor, is still a far cry from perfection. The procedures in it represent the very best techniques in determining which component or components have failed, yet they are still flawed due to the variables that can’t be duplicated in the shop. As mentioned before, some leaks only show up under extreme circumstances like pulling a horse trailer, or when the engine is at operating temp. Last I checked, Ford didn’t send us a 30,000 pound trailer in a Rotunda kit for testing purposes… And for that matter, none of the egr coolers I’ve tested off the vehicle were still at normal operating temperature by the time I removed them. I remember in school hearing that when the egr cooler is operating, there is something like an 800 degree temperature drop from one side to the other. It is impossible to duplicate those exact operating conditions “off vehicle” and be fully confident when the tsb procedure of pressure testing it in a bucket of water shows it as ok.

 

Sometimes the problem is obvious: When you have coolant pouring out of the drain hole in the muffler, coolant in the egr passage of the intake, and/or a hydro lock condition on bank 1, it is a pretty sure bet that coolers alone will drastically improve the condition of the vehicle. If the aforementioned truck is only used as a grocery getter for someone with penis envy – an egr cooler alone is probably good enough assuming the ECT/EOT spread is in spec. It would be nice however if Ford would acknowledge that things can be more mysterious, and that their tsb is not infoulable.

 

Tell me if the following sounds familiar. It should, because it was brought to you by the same people who wrote the coolant overflow tsb:

 

“Replace the egr valve, no wait, just clean it. Oh wait again, turns out cleaning isn’t a good repair - so go back to just replacing them… Oh yeah, but be careful because we mis-built several thousand new ones, so just keep replacing them until you get a good one. Ok now we’ve got it figured out, if you get one with a silver paint dot then you’re good to go… hopefully. Make sure to determine the "root cause" of the egr failure, even though we know it's a mix of fuel quality and design shortcomings... And while you’re at it, you better reflash it with the 17th software calibration we’ve come up with for this engine. We’ve got a good feeling about this one!!! Oh, and by the way, did you know your Diesel warranty numbers are too high?”

 

It would almost be funny if it weren't true, but this is what we’re dealing with. The above clusterf%$# is one of many examples, of what happens when the bean counters are at odds with engineers, and take control of a once proud company. As you know, shit rolls down hill. As it happens, we are at the bottom of this hill, looking up as an ever growing turd ball is barreling right toward us at terminal velocity. It's easy to blame us after all, we're just technicians - the other white meat.

 

My advice is this: Do the diagnostics to the best of your ability. Document everything, obtain prior approval codes whenever necessary, and write good thorough stories to explain everything in detail with the results of every step of the process. Don’t make a habit of over repairing things, and communicate with your service manager to find out what your particular dealers’ Diesel warranty numbers are, and figure out how much wiggle room you have because you will run into an occasional situation where an over repair may be appropriate due to circumstances beyond your control.

 

Fellas, it ain't perfect, but this is how I have been operating for quite a while now. Though I can’t guarantee that my efforts will result in my dealer getting paid 100% of the time, I can guarantee that I have done everything in my power fix it right the first time without going overboard, and to get my dealer reimbursed for the repair. In so doing, I eliminated my dealer's ability to blame me if they don’t. Hopefully the 4.4 and 6.7 will turn out better than the Navistar engines, and when the Navistar’s go out of warranty, and the inter-company political battles finally fade, we will hopefully return to some semblance of normal and be respected once again as the diagnosticians we are. And when that day comes, the sun will come out, and the birds will sing, Ford stock will rise above $10. Hell, I may even be able to afford to trade my Saturn for a new Super Duty, and if I have any problems with it, I want someone like Bill to fix it.

 

The current regime at FoMoCo may not like it. The Wall Street analysts may bitch, but I just placed an order for 100 shares of Ford stock, so now, as someone with a vested interest in Ford's profitability, they answer to me. And as a shareholder, I am hereby making an executive decision... I say that based on my own observations of the failure to save the company by squeezing techs and short changing customers, the future of the company actually depends on our ability to create a loyal customer base instead. Jim, you have my blessing to give her the ole super size #3 with curly fries and a Diet Coke. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Just because it's you!

 

And for my next trick, I'll try to use my new self-proclaimed influence to have you reinstated on inford. Just as soon as my $500 stake in the company lands me a corner office down the hall from Mr. Mulally. Ooooh the heads I'm going to knock in Dearborn!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boink3.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Odds are though that I'll be treated like Michael Moore when he tried to pay Roger Smith an impromptu visit at GM 20 years ago. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cover.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/fouet3.gif

 

Damn that was a good movie, but enough about Amway and proper Rabbit cleaning methods. The gentleman from Minnesota now yields the floor.

[DwayneGorniak]

Jim, all I'm gonna say is that I make sure the whole problem is repaired and write a really damn good story. And I work smarter, not harder.

 

And don't get me wrong, I don't go throwing a bunch of unnecessary crap at it. But I do believe in getting to the root cause of the concern. And I do see the odd good engine oil cooler. But I think up here in the oil patch, we see some extreme conditions that cause extreme failures. I see oil coolers that are so exploded that we have to replace the engines for PUDDING contamination.

[BrunoWilimek]

I try to follow the TSB, if not to the letter, then at least to the spirit. I don't always replace oil coolers, only if they fail. I almost always replace egr coolers even if they seem to pass the tests. Temperature does matter, as I had one that I used the block-off tools on when hot and got tiny even-sized bubbles(just like a tire leak). It sat for several days afterwards due to a weekend, before the dude came to do his inspection for the diesel engine warranty. It still had lots of pressure and no more bubbles after the first few hours. I don't code for anything not required, but replace all parts identified as being required, as well as returning to parts ALL warranty parts replaced, down to the smallest gasket(and getting my R.O. initialled for it), so if any problems arise, parts are available to be sent back. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

[DwayneGorniak]

You repair them pretty much the same way I do Bruno.

[mchan68]

Just got one in today on an '04 E-450. White smoke. Customer had to top up coolant with 8 litres. Not only that, the oil pressure gauge doesn't even register until you rev the engine up! Closer inspection revealed oil EVERYWHERE! Looks like I have both coolers and maybe even a low pressure oil pump. So, Jim how far do I go with this one?! LOL.

[Jim Warman]

Ok... on the older ones, we have been known to do the occasional "full meal deal" based on some rudimentary diagnosis and some assumptions...

 

I can't stress enough that we check the service history on the vehicle... We had one come in today where it was "recommended" to the tech that he replace the headgaskets too without adhering strictly to the spirit of the TSB... Head gaskets and no coolers were replaced about 40,000 kms ago... Oil cooler flow appears good using the "old" method. This one gets the TSB done the way it reads....

 

A truck with first gen head gaskets is probably going to get second gen head gaskets.... Ford pretty much tells us that it is our job to keep these people buying Fords.... And we are going to have a hard time doing that without addressing some of the issues that got built into the truck...

 

Doing it Fords way could have us with over 3 days booked against the truck (and God knows how much actual time the truck will have been in the shop - logistics and such could have the truck in a bay for a week).

 

Deciding which way a repair is going to get handled requires some careful consideration... and we need to realize that we wear a cap with two beaks on it.... There are those times when we act as agents for an automobile manufacturer and there are those times we need to act as agents for an automobile PURCHASER...

 

We are served up a moral dilemma... a sad conumdrum.... We can be reasonably sure early head gaskets are going to fail... If the truck can make it off warranty with no coolant loss issues - great... If it can't, I don't want somebody pointing a finger at me after warranty expires saying I didn't do a good job.

 

And we are left to make decisions we shouldn't have to make...

[Mekanik]

And we are left to make decisions we shouldn't have to make...

Managemant will usally make the decision on a vehicle that is about to go out of warranty. It is my job to say what is wrong with the vehicle and perform the repair. Service management will usally step in on a situation like this one. The theory is that if the customer gets burned by going out of warranty and then having to pay for headgaskets just after the truck was in the shop for losing coolant, will he ever buy another Ford agian? Will he ever come back to our shop for service or to buy a new vehicle from us? This is why we are a busy shop and other dealers around us are out of work by 1:00PM. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

[cbriggs]

Quote:

And we are left to make decisions we shouldn't have to make...

Thats the stupid thing though, if the parts are defective, replace them and make it right.It shouldnt be a decision. Its too bad the money ordeal is starting to override customer satisfaction. I replace headgaskets on every truck that builds cooling system pressure, and egr cooler. I have yet to see an oil cooler fail the bench test procedure, but have seen many fail on vehicle. I personaly have not removed a set of headgaskets that hasnt been burnt to oblivion on atleast 4 cylinders. Some on vehicles that barely get to 12 or 14 psi. Im starting to think we could take gaskets out of a good truck and find something wrong.

So now how can ford tell us that our warranty costs are too high, when all were trying to do is keep their customers, and besides, they built these things, not us.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Quote:

and besides, they built these things, not us.

Not Ford.... NAVISTAR /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

[robp823]

i read you guys seem to change both coolers ive only done egr coolers so far what are symptoms of oil cooler you guys have run into

[Jeff_]

i read you guys seem to change both coolers Ive only done egr coolers so far what are symptoms of oil cooler you guys have run into

Hotline told me that a restricted oil cooler can actually be the root cause of an egr cooler failure. This is because the extra heat can be enough to cause the solder joints inside the egr cooler to melt. Oil temp and coolant temp are supposed to be pretty close when everything is operating normally. If you get a truck where EOT is substantially hotter than ECT under load (25 degrees is max spec) you need to replace the oil cooler. More than half of the trucks I've repaired for coolant overflow have needed oil coolers as part of the repair.

 

And lets not forget oil coolers can have other problems besides restrictions. They can also leak internally and fill the cooling system with oil.

 

And don't forget to thoroughly clean the new oil cooler before installing it. There are other threads on this site to explain why /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif Actually here they are: CLICK HERE

AND

CLICK HERE

[robp823]

cool ill right that down in my little book but what gets restricted in the oil cooler the oil or the coolant and how?

[Keith Browning]

You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat... or fix it the second time around.

 

[robp823]

ahahhahahaahah o man

[Jeff_]

but what gets restricted in the oil cooler the oil or the coolant and how?

I believe it is the coolant passages in the oil cooler that become restricted, and I base this on absolutely nothing. Just kidding... The latest tsb has us hook up the Radkit to vacuum test the coolant aspect of the cooler, and see if the needle on the vacuum gauge moves indicating any restriction as one of the steps in the diag. As far as what is actually causing the restriction is anyone's guess. Prolly combustion soot being pushed into the cooling system through the blown head gaskets. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Hey, it sounds good on paper eh?

 

You'll never hear the "combustion soot" explanation from Ford though. Such an explanation would only serve to justify the acts of shoddy technicians (like Jim) who repair these with the "full meal deal," and we can't have that now can we? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif