Keith Browning Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Say you own a 2008 F550 with a 6.4L PSD. It is a 4X4 with a service body on it that weighs, well let's just say its damn heavy, it's full of tools, oil tanks, a service crane, pumps and hose reels. It is used to service construction equipment and the engine and underbelly are caked with mud and dust. The epitome of severe duty usage. The truck has 21,300 miles on the odometer. The hour meter built into the instrument cluster shows 1178 engine hours. Here is the question: How many oil changes should this truck have had with the information provided? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Owner says 3 times. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif . Technician A says 4 times. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boink3.gif . Technician B says 7 times. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I say you should look in the owners manual for maintenance for stationary power sources or severe duty intervals. Down yonder you folks say one hour is equal to 33 miles in the waranty policy manual and up here we say one hour is equal to 55 km's when calculating for stationary power sources. They also explain stationary power sources as trucks being used with pickers, PTO's, welders, etc. However, the owners manuals say to change the oil every 200 hours when used as severe duty. So if this is the way to calculate, I would say he should have had almost six oil changes, 5.89 to be exact. However, if you use the warranty policy manual method of one hour equals 55 km's I would say there should have been 8 oil changes. But do we use severe duty intervals, or do we use stationary power source intervals, or do we just say f$ck it and go with the mileage? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Damn, this can get confusing and either way you look at it, Ford doesn't really have anything written in stone. This is a topic that has always burnt me ars. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flamethrower.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smhair.gif I would for once like to see something that is black or white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 You have to change oil on these? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Huh, I thought that was just an option. I would assume they're probably on the original fuel filters too eh? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boink3.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Sorry for the hijack to the thread, but what grade of oil are you guys using for oil changes? I've been hearing conflicting reports of some places using 15W40 in the summer and 10W30 in the winter. Others, say to use 10W30 all year round. This is almost confusing as Ford telling us to use oil only with the CJ-4 rating, and now telling us it's okay to use the older CI-4 rating. What does your shop charge for a diesel oil change? Do you guys offer the customer the choice of going with synthetic 5W40? Getting back on topic, I always write the sticker for 3 months or 5,000 kms. (3,000 miles) the same as a gas engine. For the most part, my customers follow this schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlchv70 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 3-4 oil changes would be okay. Regarding what oil to use: Follow the owner's manual! CJ-4 is needed for the DPF. 15w40 is needed during the summer. 10w30 would be too thin with the higher temps, especially with fuel dilution from DPF regens. 10w30 isn't even really needed unless it gets really cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Yeah, but you gotta realize here, rlchv, a lot of members here are from noooooorth and not the midwest like us. This winter a couple techs on this forum were experiencing AIR TEMPERATURES colder than -40! A 10w30 oil is a necessary minimum at that point! And the CJ-4 requirement has now been, umm, unrequired, apparently. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 They don't know their ass from a hole in ground when it comes to the CJ-4 rated oil. But if you read the owners manual, it clearly states to use 15W40 in the summer when towing. I will have to dig up that old TSB when I find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 3-4 oil changes would be okay. No, I don't agree. This truck has to weigh over 20,000 Lbs, is caked with construction dirt and apparently runs most of the day in construction sites where it, ironically, services construction equipment. With almost 40,000 miles of equivalent mileage by engine hours three oil changes are not enough. The oil is thick and so soot loaded it does not run down the inside of the sample bottle. You cant see through the clear plastic! The oil filter is twisted and slightly hour glass shaped. I also purposely left out the little fact that the #8 piston and connecting rod are no longer operating as designed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 So, is the repair being done under warranty coverage or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Soooo, you got yourself a 7 lunger eh? Those are popular down South with the heat and all. Number 8 is always the first to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 So, is the repair being done under warranty coverage or not? That is the big debate right now. I really should not comment any further until this pissing match is over with. Personally, I hope the truck disappears. We don't need this kind of bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Be careful with this one Keith. We had a very similar situaion here and in the end because of the fact that Ford contradicts themselves between the warranty policy manual and the owners manual we did not have a leg to stand on to deny warranty and the customer was smart enough to know it but not smart enough to maintain his truck properly. That was one of the poinnts I was trying to get at in my initial reply to your question. Hotline wanted us to deny warranty based on the engine hours, but there was nothing we could do to when we based it on the owners manual at 200 hour intervals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Sorry for the hijack to the thread, but what grade of oil are you guys using for oil changes? I've been hearing conflicting reports of some places using 15W40 in the summer and 10W30 in the winter. Others, say to use 10W30 all year round. This is almost confusing as Ford telling us to use oil only with the CJ-4 rating, and now telling us it's okay to use the older CI-4 rating. What does your shop charge for a diesel oil change? Do you guys offer the customer the choice of going with synthetic 5W40? Getting back on topic, I always write the sticker for 3 months or 5,000 kms. (3,000 miles) the same as a gas engine. For the most part, my customers follow this schedule. Ahhh finally found it. Here's the old thread: http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3870&page=2#Post3870 And here's the old TSB i have always gone by: Printable View (28 KB) TSB 05-16-6 MISFIRE, LACK OF POWER, SMOKE, SLOW CRANK IN COLD WEATHER ON INITIAL START UP - 6.0L ENGINE Publication Date: August 3, 2005 FORD: 2003-2005 Excursion 2003-2006 F-Super Duty 2004-2006 E-Series, F-650, F-750 ISSUE: Some 2003-2006 F-Super Duty, Excursion and 2004-2006 F-650/750 and E-Series all equipped with the 6.0L engine, may exhibit a misfire, lack of power, smoke, or slow crank in cold weather on initial start up. This may be due to the oil viscosity being too high. The use of high viscosity multi-grade oil can slow cranking speed more than 30% at -20° F (-29° C), resulting in longer crank times. High viscosity multi-grade oil may delay fuel injection timing by slowing reaction of high-pressure oil control system integral to each injector. ACTION: Refer to the oil viscosity chart provided in this TSB. It has been updated and is recommended for all 6.0L DI Diesel model years. Apply the vehicle operating conditions to the oil viscosity chart and select the appropriate viscosity oil grade. Use Motorcraft or equivalent oil conforming to Ford specification WSS-M2C171-D or API service categories CI-4 PLUS, CI-4/SL or DHD-1. If CI-4 PLUS oil is not available, CH-4 is acceptable. NOTE: ALSO INCLUDED IN THE CHART IS CLARIFICATION OF THE RECOMMENDED OIL VISCOSITY GRADE TO USE WHEN TOWING A TRAILER. Figure 1 - Article 05-16-6 WARRANTY STATUS: Information Only - Not Warrantable -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright © 2005 Ford Motor Company Keith, I can never get the photo's of the charts to enter into the posts. What are the odds you can copy the chart out that TSB and insert it for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Here is a link to the chart that belongs in the TSB: http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=486&nocache=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Dwayne... a little food for thought.... we had problems with engines when they were cold.... we lost pilot injection.... we had problems with engines when they were cold and we switched to 10W 30 (does anyone know what the "W" means? Trick question)... and then we had problems with the engines when they were clod and did some marathon oil changes to try and prove that owners were more negligant than we already assumed.... and we still had cold engine problems and went to the post cycle buzz and then finally to the inductive heating strategy (and now we have to be sure we remove the FICM relay when reflashing).... What are the chances, now that we have this much of the learning curve out of the way, that we could run thicker oil AND have the return of pilot injection.... Forgive me if I'm mistaken.... but I recall pilot injection trucks as neck snappers from the git-go.... when we lost pilot injection, we lost that "lifting" power.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Quote: does anyone know what the "W" means? Would that be "Winter"?... or perhaps "Wiener" in Ralph's case /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Dwayne... a little food for thought.... we had problems with engines when they were cold.... we lost pilot injection.... we had problems with engines when they were cold and we switched to 10W 30 (does anyone know what the "W" means? Trick question)... and then we had problems with the engines when they were clod and did some marathon oil changes to try and prove that owners were more negligant than we already assumed.... and we still had cold engine problems and went to the post cycle buzz and then finally to the inductive heating strategy (and now we have to be sure we remove the FICM relay when reflashing).... What are the chances, now that we have this much of the learning curve out of the way, that we could run thicker oil AND have the return of pilot injection.... Forgive me if I'm mistaken.... but I recall pilot injection trucks as neck snappers from the git-go.... when we lost pilot injection, we lost that "lifting" power.... So.... going to the thinner oil didn't really do anything for these wonderfully engineered pieces of coolant burners did it? And we still have the same ole issues with oil viscosity protection against thermal breakdown in hot weather especially when towing. Funny, going to 15W40 in the summer and 10W30 in the winter always worked for 7.3"s and Cummins engines, but we are stilling looking for miracle fixes for the Sick-o's. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif I still believe in the 15W40 in summer and 10W30 0r 5W40 synthetic in winter. It just seems to always have worked. I guess what I am saying is: is there really a fix for design flaws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 (does anyone know what the "W" means? Trick question)...WEIGHT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 10W30=10 Winter Weight, 30 summer weight or 15W40=15 winter weight, 40 summer weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Mike... the "W" does indeed stand for "winter"... Something we shouldf all have a grasp of is some of the stuff that API has on labels ... not to mention NLGI and anything else I'm currentlyu overlooking.... "EP" has a meaning.... viscosity ratings.... we should hgave at least a passing familiarity with some of this stuff.... if for no other reason than to remind us that there are times we are better off saying "I'll find out for you...". Dwayne.... here's the deal.... From where I sit, the thinner oil helped in the fall (I recall that this was about the time we made the switch from 15W 40 in our store (caution - memory thing)). I remember "morning romps". All of these things "helped" a bit.... but nothing was a permanent cure. What I'd like to see is an effort from Ford to try pilot injection with what we all accept as current common knowledge... Look at it this way.... we might all be surprised or I might be an embarassed old fool.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlchv70 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yeah, but you gotta realize here, rlchv, a lot of members here are from noooooorth and not the midwest like us. This winter a couple techs on this forum were experiencing AIR TEMPERATURES colder than -40! A 10w30 oil is a necessary minimum at that point! That's what I meant by really cold!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Originally Posted By: DamageINC And the CJ-4 requirement has now been, umm, unrequired, apparently. Dave Is this documented somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlchv70 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: rlchv70 3-4 oil changes would be okay. No, I don't agree. This truck has to weigh over 20,000 Lbs, is caked with construction dirt and apparently runs most of the day in construction sites where it, ironically, services construction equipment. With almost 40,000 miles of equivalent mileage by engine hours three oil changes are not enough. The oil is thick and so soot loaded it does not run down the inside of the sample bottle. You cant see through the clear plastic! The oil filter is twisted and slightly hour glass shaped. I also purposely left out the little fact that the #8 piston and connecting rod are no longer operating as designed. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif You're right. I was using International's 350 hour interval, it's higher due to the larger pan. But, I would suspect that something else is going on here. I'm willing to bet that it's not soot thickening the oil, but dirt. Did you get the sample analyzed? Were there any obvious oil leaks? These could suck in dirt under some operating conditions. Any gaps downstream of the air filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 No obvious leaks in the intake as far as I can see and the filter, besides being dirty, is in good condition, fits properly and the filter minder has not moved. I am tempted to spend my own $20 for a sample analysis just to see what it says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I am tempted to spend my own $20 for a sample analysis just to see what it says. Napa PN 4077 should be several bucks less than $20, usually $12-14 +$1.40 to mail it. I'll reimburse you for the cost if you send it in. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Kaylor Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I had been using the NAPA one that Bruce recommends, but found out our local Cat dealer is doing them in house now. they charge me 10 bucks for the kit, and are less than an hour away. if they get the sample by 10am, i get results at 4pm /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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