DamageINC Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Well, we all know that Ford's been nitpicking these warranty RO's like crazy and looking for any reason to deny claims now. I just got bitten by one. Granted, I'll admit that my story for the RO was a little lackluster now that I look at it, but basically, a while ago I short blocked an '04 6.0 due to heavy cylinder wall scoring. That was determined once the heads were off because I was initially performing a head gasket repair. The turbo froze up and blew out the heads and coolers in very impressive fashion. Either way, I write everything up and mention in the story that "The EGR cooler has been damaged due to the turbocharger failure and requires replacement. Replaced EGR cooler". The cooler had mass amounts of coolant inside it, it was obvious as day that it's trashed and would fail a bench test immediately. The EGR cooler was kicked back because, in the story, I didn't state WHAT damage was done, only that it was damaged, and that in itself is not grounds for replacement. Cuuuuute. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHNO60 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Thats one plus for the prior approval process They give you the authorization code right there on paper. I take it your a level 1 dealer ? and one with a bad warranty administrator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHNO60 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 DUPLICATE Post deleted by Keith Browning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 We actually don't have a WA, we have an outside company take care of our warranty RO's. As big of a pain in the ass it is to have them take extra time booking out our tickets, (sometimes it takes weeks for big ones) they have done a very good job covering our asses with this kinda thing. This is the first time I, personally, have been bitten like this by them. (They still notoriously underpay lots of RO's by claiming the wrong, or not enough, labor ops) Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 We look up our own times Dave. I prefer it this way, because I know I,m not getting screwed. You should be able to appeal that claim with a better explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Dave, I'm assuming your talking about WPI. That is who does our warranties and I actually like it better than having a warranty administrator. It does take a little time on some tickets, but I get paid much more on warranty claims than when I was at my last shop. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif The guy next to me replaced a EGR cooler that was leaking coolant a little while ago before the whole prior aproval process artually started. Ford denied the claim sdaying there was nothing wrong with it. I saw the cooler for myself and there was coolant inside the back of it. It was most certianly leaking. The only thing we can think of is that our parts dept. has a pile of EGR coolers and just sent them one from the pile that may not have been leaking coolant. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 The only thing we can think of is that our parts dept. has a pile of EGR coolers and just sent them one from the pile that may not have been leaking coolant. If one of them "may not" have been leaking then why was it replaced? Why was a good cooler in the pile? This is where we have to accept the consequences of our actions or in-actions meaning a cooler was not bench tested to verify that it was bad before being replaced. I am not trying to break your chops to be mean, I totally respect you guys, but when we admit that a good cooler is in the pile we are admitting that somewhere, at some time, someone did not do their job. This is where I take side with Ford. We don't replace good parts. I can't get angry with Ford when they come out with TSB's and a prior approval process designed to ensure the proper diagnostics and tests are being performed. I can get angry when myself or any other technician has contributed to the current situation we find ourselves in because we simply have not been doing our job. I understand that there are times and situations where we have no choice but to replace something "to see" if it corrects a problem because we have run out of options. An EGR cooler? Since you are already willing to remove it from the engine, what is a few more minutes to set it up with the block off tools and test it? Shit, just another 60 seconds with a propane torch and you can make sure the thing doesn't only leak when it gets hot... just to be sure. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Alright. I am done. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whew.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 If you leave these coolers sit on the bench long enough after they have been removed wet, the carbon will actually absorb some of the coolant and they will not look wet at all. Maybe the Warranty Nazi's look at something as simple as that and use it as an excuse to stick it to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Dave, I'm assuming your talking about WPI. That is who does our warranties and I actually like it better than having a warranty administrator. No, although I've heard of WPI. We use "Key Dealer Services" and they've been relatively helpful. I wish we'd use WPI after hearing how much better a lot of these claims get paid out through them though, lol!! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 If you leave these coolers sit on the bench long enough after they have been removed wet, the carbon will actually absorb some of the coolant and they will not look wet at all. Maybe the Warranty Nazi's look at something as simple as that and use it as an excuse to stick it to us. In the same spirit as my last post, I certainly would hope that Ford actually tests these parts rather than simply look at them and decide whether they are going to charge the dealers back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Dave....you are going down the slow slippery slope of losing level one status. Just wait...i told you this would happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Keith, I hear you but there are a lot of other guys working on diesels here and I don't want to be in trouble for a EGR cooler that another tech replaced. Or maybe there was a EGR cooler in the pile that was replaced because it was plugged and not leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Maybe Ford should go the extra mile and install these bad units on a test mule and drive it around like the customer did when they came in to begin with. I had it happen once when the Lincoln LS first came out. I replaced a trans that had no reverse. A Ford engineer called me about 3 weeks later wanting to know why I replaced the trans. He was calling from his cell phone while driving a car that he installed the trans into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Well, here's an interesting scenario to throw at you guys. A new customer just bought a used '04 F-350 with 158,000 and change kms. on the clock from a small independent used vehicle dealer. That's less than 2,000 kms. from diesel warranty expiry. The truck comes in with a complaint of white smoke intermittently accompanied with coolant loss symptoms, about three weeks after he bought the vehicle. You don't happen to be present at the time this customer brings the vehicle in, so it goes to another inexperienced tech to look at. The tech can't verify the symptom (or so he tells you), so he sends the customer on his very way and the RO is closed as an NPF. The truck comes back in for HIS first oil change (not the vehicle's first oil change obviously) about two weeks later. You get the truck, and notice that it's obviously been topped up with green coolant, with which the level is now low. You notice that it still has the original orange coloured EGR cooler hose as well as cooler. You check OASIS, and notice that it has had a history of numerous repairs carried out, head gaskets, EGR cooler (which you now call BS due to the original orange hose still present). After you do the oil change and park the truck, you now notice that the truck DOES in fact blow white smoke (even though he is not complaining about it now, nor has any other RO line been written, other than the oil change)as you are about to park it, and move on to your next job. What do YOU do? Do you turn a "blind eye" to it, and hope that he comes back with the complaint AFTER he has rolled past the magical 160,000 kms. and the needed repair becomes (CHA-CHING$$$!!!) retail, or do you do him right and bring it to his attention and replace the cooler(s)? This, despite the current situation with high warranty claims, and Ford putting us under very tight scrutiny for every single warranty repair claim we put through. Jim, Keith and Dwayne, what do you guys say? I would love to hear your thoughts (especially Jim). /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 If the frickin things broke, it's broke, no matter who's paying the bill. Ford/Navistar says they will take responsibility for these engines until they reach 5 years or 100k, after that they have fulfilled there obligation. Well they don't make it to those numbers for a lot of units out there and now they don't want to man up. If it makes it out of that time frame and then breaks ok, customer pay. But there are alot of trucks that are driven as intended with no mods that just don't hold up. We are told not to upsell warranty unless it's a safety issue and I see any break down scenario in a 6.0L as a safety item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Actually, our 126 numbers keep getting better. We're on such a heightened awareness level right now that we're killing everyone around us, right now I think our 6 month rolling average for all the diesel repair areas are still between -.3 and -.7, so we're way green on that one. It just sucks to get bitten like that. And the real horseshit thing is that our SM is threatening to charge US (the tech) for any losses incurred for rejected claims due to improper paperwork and/or comebacks. Personally, I have no problem with that, as long as I get paid the fucking door rate for my work here. Otherwise, I think it's flat out absurd to even consider that. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 It just sucks to get bitten like that. And the real horseshit thing is that our SM is threatening to charge US (the tech) for any losses incurred for rejected claims due to improper paperwork and/or comebacks. Thats really understanding of him. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Mike... you are in a gnarly spot.... But, let's try and break this down into smaller chunks.... First... you have a customer with a truck nearly five years old..... five years.... I imagine he was surprised when he found out he still had a "smell" of warranty left.... None-the-less - what happens next might very well pave the road this mans future buying habits will follow. "The inexperienced tech"... We all started out as this guy.... Every last one of us.... But some donkey on the service desk hasn't yet realized that a "tech" is much more than a pair of coveralls and a toolbox.... much more than some pretty "wallpaper" .... (you can almost smell a couple of new rants coming on)... And this donkey on the service desk will start something that someone else is going to have to fix.... "Green coolant".... all I will say is add dye to gold coolant.... the brand of dye may be pertinent.... I'll have to check on what we currently have - but we have seen dye turn gold into green (or apparently so).... This is a hazy subject IMHE and the less said without some solid background...... I can't recall when the EGR cooler hose was updated.... I do recall replacing EGR coolers and oil coolers and such and getting an orange hose in the gasket set.... I have also seen techs claim for doing stuff that wasn't done.... You are still in a gnarly spot.... What can you do? Check the date of the repairs.... If they are circa the hose update..... what can I say? Now... forget that the guy just bought the truck.... He buys old trucks - from independants.... this isn't the stuff that keeps your store afloat.... He's a guy with a truck and it has a bit of warranty left.... Is he a "preferred customer"? Are you going to go above and beyond the call of duty for this guy????? Why???? Since there was a previous concern of white smoke and seeing as SAs are supposed to be familiar with their customers and seeing as we are trying to keep these customers as our own.... did the fucking wiener on the service desk look at customer history anywhere in the process? You did... and look what you found.... With the info you now have.... what would it take for someone to contact the customer and ask if this other concern has been either resolved or addressed.... In the strictest sense, it isn't "upsell"... it IS "after sales service".... it is, in fact, customer follow up - something that Ford recommends. About a week after a visit to the store, our SAs are instructed to call the customer to determine if the experience with the dealer was satisafactory... if the car was repaired as promised or if there are any concerns that need to be addressed.... OH MY FUCKING GOD We are supposed to show the customer we care about him/her.... we are supposed to show that we are concerned with their satisfaction.... I could keep going, Mike.... these subjects are never as easy as most think they are.... This is a complex dynamic.... One thing you can be sure of.... You are in the middle..... At any one time, you are about to step on someones toes.... If you are lucky, you get to pick whose toes it is.... Suck it up, Princess... we are trying to be politically correct in a world that isn't politically correct.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak If you leave these coolers sit on the bench long enough after they have been removed wet, the carbon will actually absorb some of the coolant and they will not look wet at all. Maybe the Warranty Nazi's look at something as simple as that and use it as an excuse to stick it to us. In the same spirit as my last post, I certainly would hope that Ford actually tests these parts rather than simply look at them and decide whether they are going to charge the dealers back. Well you know, we had the warranty Nazi's up here kick back claims of EGR valve repairs because the dates on the valves were newer than the build dates on the trucks. Well no shi!t Sherlock! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif After a very rude conversation I had with WEPEC and explaining to them about how many freakin valves can be put into one truck and telling them to look in OASIS, we got our claims payed in full. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Jim, I don't give a rat's ass about being politically correct, or stepping on anyone's toes. I care about being FUNDAMENTALLY correct and doing the right thing for this guy, who has the potential to be another good new customer. If it is to do him right by looking after his problems while he still has a smidgeon of warranty left, so that he's not stuck with a $3,000 repair after the fact, I'm all for it. It's like you've said in many past posts, and I'm sure many more to come "where would we be without our customers?" What it all boils down to, Ford has a hell of a lot more money than he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Mike, all I can say in this situation is do what you feel is the right thing to do and hope for the best. Again that's just my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Mike... in the interests of being "politically correct" (something that we need to have at least the "appearance" of, on occasion) this is why I mentioned "customer follow up".... If you want the guy as a customer.... treat him as if you want him for a customer... For my own part, I wouldn't hesitate to ask if someones last visit was satisfactory and if all concerns were addressed. Our customer sees someone that cares... and Ford sees a shop doing the customer follow up that Ford says we should do... Can you get any more fundamentally correct than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Quote: Mike... in the interests of being "politically correct" (something that we need to have at least the "appearance" of, on occasion) this is why I mentioned "customer follow up".... If you want the guy as a customer.... treat him as if you want him for a customer... For my own part, I wouldn't hesitate to ask if someones last visit was satisfactory and if all concerns were addressed. Our customer sees someone that cares... and Ford sees a shop doing the customer follow up that Ford says we should do... Can you get any more fundamentally correct than that? ABSOLUTELY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 I went for a ride with a customer the other day (something i am not fond of doing), for a noise. As soon as we hit the road it's apparent he has a front wheel bearing going south. He tells me he just payed us 45 dollars to tell him it was normal tire noise. I was like what????? The guy wasn't looking for anything other than to get his truck fixed and we kicked him loose with a shotty bullshit diag. I can't believe he returned to us. I told him it was indeed a wheel bearing and not tires and his money would be credited torward the correct repair. BTW the incorrect diag came from a tech I told them not to hire. This is about the fifth customer they have had to smooth over in less than a month because of said tech. Guess what he's still at our shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Brad... this is what has become "business as usual".... It is a tough sell to those higher on the food chain than I, but I see myself as "quality control" these days.... And here comes one of the rants I promised.... Not long ago, we overhauled a front diff on a half ton (original concern is noise in front).... I got involved about "mid stream"..... Ring and pinion were replaced as well as all bearings.... I inspected the bearings and the side bearings were spalting.... I didn't understand the ring and pinion but what the fuck do I know? After everything was reassembled and road tested... it came back in the shop.... I am getting confused at this point and the job was passed to me.... That was up until I drove it a half block and heard the wheel bearing that was in self destruct mode.... How... In God's name..... can we overlook a wheel bearing and hear bad side bearings????? And here comes the surprise I didn't see.... we can do this by not verifying the concern.... This tech never did take this fucking truck for a drive.... his Mexican drivers licence expired a year before he emigrated..... And all of the customers that know and trust me have a chance to take a second look.... The truly sad part is that there isn't a lot of difference between a shoddy tech and a great tech.... A shoddy tech cares about what happens ON payday... a great one worries about what happens between them.... As you have seen - it is the little things that separate the two halves. Going for a ride with a customer can be a revealing thing.... Here is your chance to ask all the questions you wish the SA had asked.... If the customer wants to "chit chat", pretend to be engrossed in thought if chit chat isn't in your repertoire... The previous tech should be spoken to.... how did he arrive at a diagnosis that embarasses your whole shop? Is it something he never learned or something he disregarded? I can be extremely short with "stupid" but I try my best to use it as a teaching tool... It is becoming more and more important for us to be personally involved in our customers concerns.... It is rare for an SA to gather the basic info we need to even recreate the customers concern.... Perhaps the guy in the next bay isn't capable of a lot of his job requirements.... If he is bad, there is a very real chance that we will be painted with the same brush that paints him. Here's your chance to get "in peoples faces".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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