How hot is too hot?? **UPDATE**

[DamageINC]

Got a lovely one here - '06 Ambulance.

 

Vehicle came in, guy driving it says he noticed the "check gauge" light on and the coolant needle was pegged when he looked. Also stated the loud whistling/hooting noise from underhood while he'd accelerate.

 

I let it sit for 10 minutes or so, check the ECT/EOT pids KOEO and found them maxed out. I pop the hood - wooooooah, that's hot. The degas bottle has stress cracks all over it and it's been venting heavily. So I grab an infrared thermometer and start checking things. In the meantime, I'm letting the degas bottle vent out with the cap cracked a bit.

 

I notice that the thermostat housing and upper radiator hose are measuring a solid 280*F, and the remote oil filter housing is at about 260*F. After about 10 more minutes, the degas bottle's done hissing, so I take a shot at the coolant sitting at the top of the bottle.

 

349*F!!!

 

Just to be sure, I checked a few other things, and came back to it and it was almost identical. After at least 20 minutes of cooling off and 10 of them with the cap loose, the coolant temperature was almost 350*F!!!

 

The cause of the overheating was the fan clutch wiring - looks like someone broke the retainer for the connector in the shroud, and it made it's way into mr. fan blade.

 

As we know, the oil filter is remotely mounted, so I don't know how likely it would be to find a melted standpipe in this housing, and this one appears ok for now. The filter doesn't look terrible either.

 

As it sits, I'm in a position to have to replace the fan clutch and just beat the holy hell out of it afterward while monitoring some vitals.

 

Hotline's being very "avoidant" with telling me there's any potential for further damage, and just recommended I perform the coolant loss TSB which wasn't necessary as I noticed right off the bat that the fan RPM wasn't exitant when I checked pids while running.

 

So this begs the question then - just how hot can these things get before you start questioning things?

 

Dave

[jared_bortel]

IMHO, you need to wait and check it in the morning. If it still cranks when it's stone cold then you may have dodged a bullet. I'd slam the fan clutch in it change the oil and filter flush the coolant for good luck and beat that bitch silly. Worst case scenario try to stay close to home while you're doing it and at least the tow bill is minor. In past experience though, when I've had standpipes melt on trucks, I've never been able to get them to spin over, it's kind of like someone packing a bearing with plastigauge I reckon.

[Keith Browning]

As we know, the oil filter is remotely mounted, so I don't know how likely it would be to find a melted standpipe in this housing, and this one appears ok for now.

Don't kid yourself. A while back we had a sales driver bring a van from Quigley that had a loose lower radiator hose clamp at the radiator. He was oblivious to the over heating situation until there was enough smoke and steam to catch his attention. The damn thing was baked. The second thing I checked after I discovered the leaking connection was the standpipe. I have pictures of this somewhere. Pull the filter and look.

[Aaron]

I had one about 3 weeks ago (E-Box) that melted the return hose from the EGR cooler off of the degas bottle.

 

Got 25* ECT/EOT spread IDLING in the shop.

[DamageINC]

Well, this one's been driving and runnign for about 3 or 4 hours now. Slo far, so good, filter standpipe looks ok as far as I can tell, pids appear normal. I beat the holy hell out of it for a good half hour and the only thing I noticed was that the overall running temperature hovered around 220*F, which seems a bit toasty. But the EOT never went more than 12* higher, and there's no other driveability problems yet... so I was told to send it on it's way.

 

Hopefully it doesn't show up again /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Dave

[Aaron]

I don't know for sure if 220 is TOO hot, but the one I did had the fan stator all cut to ratshit and was around 213 or so at it's hottest in 100 degree heat.

 

But I had a new radiator, as well.

[DamageINC]

PLACE YOUR BETS!

 

Does this vehicle need

 

A) Head Gaskets

Cylinder Heads

C) Short/Long block.

 

This thing came back with an EXTERNAL and internal EGR cooler leak. There was coolant seeping from the welds on the cooler and the intake was full of coolant. ECT/EOT spread ok.

 

Replaced the EGR cooler and vacuum tested the oil cooler - ok. Reassemble vehicle, drive around - degas bottle screams for mercy past half throttle. Cap/Bottle in good shape, venting around 17-18 psi.

 

So - new fan clutch, new EGR cooler, good oil cooler, good degas bottle and cap.

 

Remember, this sucker was showing 350* coolant temps after 20 minutes of cooling down with the degas cap off.

 

I am curious to see if the heads are warped, and more importantly, if the cylinder walls are scored.

 

Dave

[Jeff_]

I bet "C"

[mchan68]

I bet "C"

I 2nd that.

[cbriggs]

based on temps you recorded, im a 3rd for c.

[Tony302600]

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif can't wait for the whole story saturday night on how the service manager took it Dave. LoL.

[DamageINC]

Hehehe, well, I took it out and apart yesterday.

 

Cylinder wall scoring in cylinders 1 and 3, coolant PITTING on the top of the cylinder in cylinder 3, both heads warped well beyond .003", severely blown head gaskets, light (but still obvious) front cover cavitation, half of the plastic retainers on the rockers have already broken and the rest are extremely brittle, plus the extra heat and pressure resluted in the heater core/auxiliary heater hose "connections" to have separated and leaked too.

 

Doing my cost-cap as we speak /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Oh - and Tony.. I've already ruined everyone's week here. The SM's flat-out livid. He doesn't even want to talk to me right now, hehe.

 

Dave

[2006]

Hehehe, well, I took it out and apart yesterday.

 

The SM's flat-out livid. He doesn't even want to talk to me right now

 

 

Your service manager seems to have an issue. Its not your fault it came in overheating. I would have done the same thing you did. Fix the obvious fan clutch problem and road test it. If it passes, ship it. I would have wrote a discalimer on the r.o. stating that future engine damage may likely result due to the gross overheating.

[DamageINC]

You're absolutely right.. it's just that I'd already suspected further damage and was told to ignore it by the "powers than be" because the 126 is high and we'll just take our chances.

 

Yeah.

 

Now we have a comeback with extra diagnosis time involved, and we're faced with potential bounced claim with the original RO now for misdiagnosis.

 

I also didn't mention that, when this returned, I almost immediately knew there were head gasket (and possibly engine) issues but was told to "just replace the EGR cooler and ship it." The only thing that kept the vehicle here was the fact that it was still venting after the repair.

 

So now we have diag time + labor for a fan clucth, plus labor for an EGR cooler (I wasn't allowed diag time for the repair because he said that it overlaps with the previous repair), and now diag time + labor for a short block & 2 heads. Could have been consolidated had the issue been addressed like I'd have wanted to... either way, the SM's way of taking care of the situation didn't pan out like he'd wanted this time, (often times, it does) and we've kinda got egg on our face. At least I know I'm in the clear.

 

Dave

[Tony302600]

Get a long block, what the hell is the matter with you. The engine is toast. If the rocker clips are brittle why bother with all that shit. Change the long block and call it a day. Why throw a shortblock + heads, and dick with all that crap.

[DamageINC]

Because this store gets more retarded day by day. This engine has been out and apart since Tuesday night and they still haven't authorized me to order anything because he is seriously considering NOT replacing the short block, and just going with the assumption that the heads will be suffecient. It's not a matter of fixing it right anymore with them, it's simply a matter of "what's the minimum we can do and hope that it doesn't return."

 

I am growing very tired of working hard here when every PROFESSIONAL decision I make is scrutinized by management.

 

All I can hope for, is that IF they decide to half-ass this to save face with the 126 numbers, that this returns in another month with even more problems. I honestly don't care anymore. I'm a good tech, and I know it.

 

Dave

[mchan68]

Because this store gets more retarded day by day. This engine has been out and apart since Tuesday night and they still haven't authorized me to order anything because he is seriously considering NOT replacing the short block, and just going with the assumption that the heads will be suffecient. It's not a matter of fixing it right anymore with them, it's simply a matter of "what's the minimum we can do and hope that it doesn't return."

 

I am growing very tired of working hard here when every PROFESSIONAL decision I make is scrutinized by management.

Then WHY are you still employed there? YOUR integrity is not something you should put on a pedestal for ANYBODY regardless of circumstance. I am sure there are other dealers that would be more than happy to recruit you for your services.

Originally Posted By: DamageINC

All I can hope for, is that IF they decide to half-ass this to save face with the 126 numbers, that this returns in another month with even more problems. I honestly don't care anymore. I'm a good tech, and I know it.

 

Dave

Think about what you are saying. Aren't customers the ones that matter most? I doubt that half-assing it is going to make them happy campers, especially if they have to return for even further down time.

[Tony302600]

One of the ambulances that is in the fleet we do work for stalled while transporting a heart attack patient (first visit here thank god). All I think of is, what if it was me. I feel for you Dave as I am lucky to have a boss and owner that care more about doing it right then a stupid report thats flawed to begin with. Ambulances are fixed and get 2 days of off and on driving to make sure that they are fixed. If it was me i wouldn't touch it until he cited with me. You shouldn't have to half ass a vehicle on ure managers decision that transport's a life.

 

Would you feel safe knowing that the ambulance that will transport you was fixed only 75%.

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

 

On Edit. The heart attack patient made it ok.

[DamageINC]

Hehe, no no I didn't mean that I didn't care whether or not the vehicle was fixed correctly (obviously I do, that's why I'm miffed about this.) I just don't care if this thing comes back and bites the dealership in the balls again. Before, I used to really worry about the potential for comeback if we were told to do something that didn't "fly" with me, for the customer AND the dealer. Now, I just feel bad for the customer.

 

And simply because this is an ambulance, and they NEED it as soon as possible, I fear that we'll end up losing the entire fleet over the fact that the driver has visited the shop EVERY day and seen the same parts, in the same places, for the last 3 days straight. With no update.

 

This driver, by the way, was one of our Senior Master Diesel technicians only 3 years ago. So he's completely aware of what's happneing here. He works for 3 different villages and brings ALL of their vehicles to us. Watch the business go out the door when this one's finished.

 

It's not that I don't care, but I'm just totally apathetic to the ramifications of half-assing this from the DEALERSHIP level.

 

I don't know how much more of this place I want to deal with.

 

Dave

[Tony302600]

i'm not blaming you at all, im blaming your stupid retarded manager. Tow it over here we'll put a motor in it. LoL.

[SteveS]

This is a little OT, but from Senior Diesel Master Tech to ambulance driver? Was that a good career move for him?

[Jeff_]

Sure it was... I know I'd rather drive them than work on them /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif

[DamageINC]

For him - yeah. He makes less, but he's much happier. Also, he's had a want to do the Fireman thing for a while... there's a story to that.

 

Anyone here remember, like 12 or 13 years ago, that school bus that was hit by a train in a town called Fox River Grove? 7 students were killed, it was national headline-style news, pretty gruesome actually.

 

He was a student on that bus and remembers the ambulances and EMS team showing up to help, ever since then it just kinda stuck with him.

 

Either way, I got approval (after 6 damn days of waiting) from our manager to go ahead and long-block it. Thank God.

 

Dave

[Tony302600]

For him - yeah. He makes less, but he's much happier. Also, he's had a want to do the Fireman thing for a while... there's a story to that.

 

Anyone here remember, like 12 or 13 years ago, that school bus that was hit by a train in a town called Fox River Grove? 7 students were killed, it was national headline-style news, pretty gruesome actually.

 

He was a student on that bus and remembers the ambulances and EMS team showing up to help, ever since then it just kinda stuck with him.

 

Either way, I got approval (after 6 damn days of waiting) from our manager to go ahead and long-block it. Thank God.

 

Dave

Thank God, i don't wanna hear about it from Mark and Nick anymore LoL. 12 years ago, the ems and ambulances made it there because they had 7.3L's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

[DamageINC]

Lol don't you worry Tony - we just got another 6.0 truck in that looks like it's gonna need an engine of some sort. This is gonna get real interesting, and I'm sure Mark & Nick will be GLAAAAD to fill you in on it all.

 

Dave