Rickster42 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 ok, get this 04 F350 in a few days ago - noisy and no power. - cold side plastic cac tube ruptures wide open, slap a new one on, and take it for a roadtest to check for overboost. - 100ft from shop I hammer the go pedal and BOOM... ah shit musta blew another cac hose.. - back inside,no cac hoses off. oops lets check turbo - no spin. remove turbo - shaft is snapped and turbine wheel destroyed, but still inside turbo.( man that turbo blew up hard, just like a cac hose coming off x 2 loud!) - fresh turbo - r/test time - surging like a dog - p0472 - ebpv = 0V. - wiggling ebp connector and voltage spikes up and down. - ok new connector & ebp installed. - fun begins 10mins into r/test- turbo surging again - ebpv = 0v - lift the hood and ebp connector is off ebp sensor and broken the lock tab? - screw a manual gauge into ebp port and rev to 3500 in park 70 plus psi? - this thing will push off the ebp connector after 10mins of driving! - dropped cat - no joy. dropped downpipe - no joy. - removed turbo and run engine w/ oil supply blocked off.Seems to have no restrictions in y pipes or manifolds if I try and compare sides. - I`m looking close at this reman turbo and while I haven`t taken it apart, I can see the vanes moving nicely with the magnet test on the bench? - this thing does not have a low power concern when I roadtest it.. - sisters wedding on the weekend and a concert = me drinking enough to kill a small dog, but come on man,this is ridiculous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 The 0v raises a red flag in my mind. Do you have 5V VREF at the EBP if you back-probe it? If not, you may have another sensor that uses the same VREF shorting it out. It seems like 04's had the most harness issues in my experience... I'm thinking either VREF is shorted by another sensor (or in the harness), or you have an open/high resistance in harness for the EBP VREF or Signal ckts. At least you know the sensor ground is good. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tomato.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster42 Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 The 0v happens when the ebp connector is pushed out of the ebp sensor.It will actually break the lock/latch on the connector. did that twice to me on r/tests. Thats why I checked backpress with a manual gauge in the ebp port. I think there is so much press there it is possibly seeping through the sensor( like oil coming through an eary build icp)? Yep that sounds whacked, I know, but what else could do it? Lotsa slack in harness.Those connectors latch down pretty hard and are disconnected after 10 mins driving hard. I`ve tried 2 new connectors and 2 different ebp sensors. looking up oasis history - this thing has had 4 connectors & ebp sensors in the last few months at other dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Another marriage just happened, along with your sister's... YOURS. To this truck! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif But at any rate, what kinda pressure do you get if you knock the feed pipes off the turbo? You said you ran it with the turbo off, I'd be interested to yank the feed pipes off and see if there's anything in them. Sounds like you got a stumper on your hands. Keep us in the updates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster42 Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 Another marriage just happened, along with your sister's... YOURS. To this truck! If I fix it quick I may get an annulment? Visiting owner/trailer in lot/hotel(not a holiday inn express either..) Yep it`s one of those.. But at any rate, what kinda pressure do you get if you knock the feed pipes off the turbo? You said you ran it with the turbo off, I'd be interested to yank the feed pipes off and see if there's anything in them. I dropped the l/h ex manifold off to check for restrictions, all clear on l/h side & l/h up pipe. When I run it with turbo off, there doesn`t appear to be any noticeable diff in exhaust between sides, although I`d like to test that better... and ebp pressure on my gauge drops right off. Only thing I can think of is r/h up pipe restriction, as ebp port is in l/h manifold and goes to 0 when turbo removed. I hate friggen y pipes... Sounds like you got a stumper on your hands. Keep us in the updates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 At this point I think you need to concentrate on the obvious..... A 70+PSI spike and a pooched EBP.... You've replaced the turbo. What are the chances of two turbos having THAT identical concern? Prove it to yourself..... The magnet test is dead... it became obsolete a while ago (some of us old troglodytes "might" consider it rarely, now). If you are doing diesel work, at the very least your shop should have an IDS, a VMM and the VGT position tool that Ford sent out.... You can monitor the VGT in real world/real time situations and elminate or prove a concern. Important to remember... there are many things that we can't judge in the service bay.... we desparately need to recreate conditions in real world settings.... Air flow through the motor (including exhaust restriction AND intake restriction) need a full boost at torque peak situation to properly assess. Same goes for the fuel system (I have yet to try the new fuel pressure tool). A lot of exhaust pipes are double wall construction.... they might look OK on the outside.... inside might be a different story. Take two large steps back from your concern.... Assess the info you have.... The diagnostic process is nothing more than a step by step, logical (least intrusive to most intrusive) progression of fact finding steps.... The results of our last test step decide our next step. You ran the motor at 3500 in the bay and got 70 PSI on the EBP? Boost was? I need to warn you, at this point, that I am an asshole.... You say "dropped cat - no joy. dropped downpipe - no joy".... All day long I get "it was good" from my young'uns only to find out that we have a learning curve in progress. What was your EBP... what was your MGP... do you hear or see anything odd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster42 Posted August 27, 2008 Author Share Posted August 27, 2008 James, I was giving a pretty quick overview of the concern, but trust me, I am quite thorough in my testing. I would not waste any member of this sites time by not crossing my t`s and dotting my i`s before posting.I rarely ask for help so maybe it`s me, but I did feel your reply was condescending to me in a couple of ways... Perhaps you had a bad day also? Anyways truck is fixed and that's what matters in the end... Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 WHAT?????? Jim's being a condescending asshole???? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif and here I thought that was one of his few redeeming quality's Actually Rick all joking aside sometimes one needs that kind of "line of questioning" to make you rethink your steps for the one you may have overlooked. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif I like most have been bitten by the DUH! bug many times where I got so caught up in trying to find the problem /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif that I forgot to check the basics only to step away or have somebody stop by the bay and say "did you check the (insert part here) and you think "no DUH" haven't you?? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Anyway what was the final fix for this truck?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Rick, I'm sorry if I sounded condescending.... it certainly wasn't my goal... But neither was my reply the result of a 'bad' day... In our shop, if a truck or car is sufferning from a concern that just doesn't want to get fixed.... it is going to visit my little corner of creation.... On a rare occasion, I might find something really off the wall as a concern.... but, by and large, I will find that someone has under-estimated the importance of a test step - or they have performed an inappropriated test.... I have seen hours and hours wasted because of assumptions.... I have seen techs replace enought parts that the damned thing will finally start and run. Nobody sets out with the plan that they will have this kind of trouble.... but it can certainly happen to any of us if we allow it. By asking those questions I did, I wasn't insinuating that you weren't being thorough... I was saying that "these" are things that it might be nice to know... So... what was the final cure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster42 Posted August 29, 2008 Author Share Posted August 29, 2008 I can see your prospective being a shop foreman... agreed. Ok there was actually 2 things still wrong with this truck after cac tube rupture an turbo explosion. 1 - l/h turbo inlet y pipe had been changed a while ago somewhere and must of leaked so they stuffed another gasket/s onto where the r/h and l/h turbo y pipes bolt together.Trouble is the steel gasket/s were out of place blocking a lot of the y pipe.This fixed my wild ebp readings.whooo hooo road test time, 5 kms into r/test it pushes ebp connector off of ebp sensor again. - Ok this is whacked. I`m looking around cause this has gotta be an episode on punked... 2- Now I have the engine idling in my bay and I touch the ebp sensor for some reason or other with engine running and thought I got zapped... Now I`m real interested so I get the shop foreman to touch it too(the ebp sensor boys...) he says not shock but vibration? Ok i`ll touch it again now that it is safe..hehe Shit he`s right it is vibrating like mad. Shop foreman whips out his stethoscope and starts probing - says the idler pulley right in front of the ebp is causing vibration, and he is very good with a stethoscope. Ok now knowing how an ebp sensor works, I`m starting to get excited, so loosen the serp belt and spin the idler pulley - feel some roughness.. Replaced the idler pulley and r/tested for 50kms and it is perfect... Truck has over 1500kms since and is fine. My theory is that the vibe was affecting the sensor in just the right way(variable capacitance sensor) and would push the sensor connector straight up with enough force to break the connector lock every time after 5-10kms of driving.. Sounds wild I know, but I know that fixed it...holy shit. I call it my 6/49 job(powerball for you U.S. guys) cause I would probably have the same odds of winning one than ever seeing this wild ass shit again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 WOW, what an A$$-Kicker! So, to sumerize: The CAC tube and turbo failures were probably related to the poor EBP signal (combination of the vibration and restricted up-pipe)? Or coincidental to the EBP issues? Does this mean that the truck has not had the Inferred EBP reflash? Is anyone using an ultrasonic stethoscope for wierd problems similar to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster42 Posted September 1, 2008 Author Share Posted September 1, 2008 Steve, this vehicle did not have inferred ebp calibration. If it did the ebp connector could have detached itself all it wanted too with no driveability concerns. -I have never seen a cold side cac tube ruptured this badly - it is of course split in the bellows area of the pipe - but it is no pinhole- about 50% around the circ of the cac hose. -Never had a turbo go boom that loud while driving before either. Thats all I can say for facts - but I think clearly this thing had several underlying problems that combined into the perfect storm just when this visiting owner visited my shop for the low power concern( vehicle presented with split cac hose originally). I do wonder though if one of the other idlers and not the one directly in front of the ebp sensor, had been vibrating, if it would have still affected the ebp? I have my doubts... never did squat to icp voltage readings - they were clean - icp sensor works on same principle as ebp. Mind you in hindsight, the ebp voltage pid looked clean too, up until it would push the connector off and flatline 0v. Perhaps I should have scoped the signal for a much better look... - Ah well, I do have the causal idler brg, and it will find a good spot on my bar collection of weird mechanical horror stories. It makes for good conversation over a few beers, but mostly I use them to remind myself how I could have done better in a particular situation and helps me alot in future situations.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Moral of the story - go get drunk with the causal part. Just don't wake up next to it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Too wierd! Thanks for sharing the story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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