Might wanna read this one... (HPFP Gasket)

DamageINC · August 28, 2008

So a truck that I just put an HPFP Gasket on for a blown F74/chaffed wire at the pump, just came back with an intermittent stall-no-start.

Once it's cooled off, it starts just fine.

P2291 and P0090 in memory, passes On-Demand when I get to it. I MADE ABSOLUTELY SURE that the connectors were properly seated when I installed this new updated gasket, by tugging on them once they were connected. This was obviously something didn't want to do twice.

Either way, I load test the wires from the PCM to the jumper harness and they're good, and there's good power source from the BJB to the jumper harness as well. Great.

A call to hotline reveals that they've been getting hammered with calls about this after gasket/harness replacement. Apparently there are a series of different things causing this, but it all revolves around the issue that once the engine gets hot enough, the insulator in the connector, or the HPFP connector itself expands, and pushes out the gasket-side of the connector, causing an open in the PCV circuit. Once it cools down, the connector re-seats and everything's fine for a while.

Either way, I get to do this job all over again. Fortunately I've got some backup in a hotline request stating that this is a known issue and that they're looking into it, so I should probably get paid to re-do the repair.

Maybe I'll have to wire-tie the thing to the pump, I dunno what I'm gonna find but I'll let you know what it is when I do.

Dave

Bruce Amacker · August 28, 2008

Can you duplicate the problem? I'd suggest putting an amp clamp or scope/low current clamp on the PCV wire at the PCM and verifying that this is the circuit that goes to zero, causing your problem. It would really suck to do this job AGAIN.......

Good Luck!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Keith Browning · August 28, 2008

Eeeesh! I just wrapped one of these up but I didn't have any problems. Thanx for the heads up!!!

Either way, I get to do this job all over again. Fortunately I've got some backup in a hotline request stating that this is a known issue and that they're looking into it, so I should probably get paid to re-do the repair.

You will get paid. Claim it as SPW ands submit it. Document your call to the Hot Line, PRINT OUT 2 COPIES OF YOUR HOT LINE ASSISTANCE REQUEST and staple one to the repair order. Keep the other for safe keeping. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

GregKneupper · August 29, 2008

I just got burned on one of these. Another tech in our shop replaced the harness on one and then had to go to school the next day. I ended up just having to put the body back on the truck. On the test drive it ended up breaking down on me. Towed it back and ran codes and got the p0090. Ohmed it out and it was open. Pulled the body back off and the connectors just fell off the pump. The tabs that lock the connector to the pump were both bent backwards and would not latch onto the pump. You could just pull them right off. So we did an spw on the gasket and the new one fit just fine. This seems to be a problem with these gaskets as there is a forum topic on fmc dealer about this as well.

Keith Browning · August 29, 2008

Greg, on the few I have replaced I noticed that the connectors on the PCV and the VCV require a little extra pressure to fully seat them. On the ones that fail, is it that the tabs are obviously bent or is it possible they are not being fully fully seated and locked in the first place? (no, I am not being a wise-ass - just posing a question)

The first one I replaced gave me some trouble and I thought there was something wrong with the connectors. The tabs looked fine on that one but I did have to remove a rubber insert from one of the valve connectors... I wish I could remember the details.

GregKneupper · August 29, 2008

being that I was not the one to install the original gasket I could not tell you what condtion they were in before being installed. I have done several of these and know that they need to be pushed on until you can hear the click and then pulled on to make sure they are seated. When I removed the gasket after it failed you could clearly see that the tabs were bent back. I assume that it was made this way. I asked the tech that installed the harness and he told me he noticed that they did not feel right. Why he continued to put it on is beyond me. When I was instructed to install the body that is all I did to it. He already had the engine put back together so I did not see the harness or get to view him installing it.

Mekanik · August 29, 2008

Well this makes me feel really good right now. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif I recently did two of theese. Maybe they should come out with a little wedge to put in the connector like the 7.3L UVC harness.

Keith Browning · August 29, 2008

When I removed the gasket after it failed you could clearly see that the tabs were bent back.

Well, that is definitive. Thanks. Now, could you get a picture of the offending connector? With a piece of white paper behind it? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

DamageINC · August 29, 2008

I'm gonna bring my camera to work tomorrow. Once I get it all apart, I'll take a pic or two.

Hopefully this doesn't bite anyone here... I checked the FMC forums and there's a current thread there on this problem too.

Yikes.

I don't feel so terrible knowing I'm not the only schlep who's been porked by this one.

Dave

Tony302600 · August 29, 2008

i'm gonna avoid the shitoutta the next ticket that has "died while driving" as a line on a 6.4L This is getting dumb.

Anybody see the new Frontline mag from Ford having them brag about how much better their truck is then dodge or sterling as a MD work truck? I just laughed after reading all this, then reading that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif

Alex Bruene · August 29, 2008

Anybody see the new Frontline mag from Ford having them brag about how much better their truck is then dodge or sterling as a MD work truck? I just laughed after reading all this, then reading that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif

The truck is way better... the engine may not be.

We have a few customers that have added Sterling Bullets to their fleets, and hate them immensely.

DamageINC · August 29, 2008

Well, I got it all apart. (In just shy of 3 hours!) But anyway, there's really nothing special to see. I can't find any visible damage to the connectors, or the HPFP. All I know is that when I removed the cover and grabbed the connectors (yes, BOTH of them) they just popped right out of the pump. Reconnect them as tight as possible, jiggle 'em around, and they fall out again.

I can shoot a pic or two if you'd like but I really don't expect to see anything.. there was a question as to whether the silicone packing in the connector stuck in the pump, and then when the new harness was plugged in, it "double sealed" causing it to not connect fully. But, there was no other insulation inside the connector. So, that wasn't the case.

The new connector simply just won't stay plugged in now... Maybe the locking tab on the connector warps when it gets hot enough and allows it to come loose?

Dave

Tony302600 · August 29, 2008

maybe a updated jumper will come in the works. I love the 6.0L now. LoL.

DamageINC · August 29, 2008

I spent a little more time with it and absolutely determined that what's happening is that these connectors are warping. They push in all the way, for certain. But the locking tab that needs to be "lifted" to remove the connector, is bending up on it's own, probably from the oil and heat.

So there's nothing preventing the connector from walking off of the pump after it bends. You can manually push the locking tab down, and as soon as you let it go, it pops back up.

Dave

Aaron · September 4, 2008

I'm tearing one of these pieces of shit apart right now, Good reading. Will make doubly sure everything's happy.

DamageINC · September 4, 2008

This is just a shit sandwich... the problem is that you won't know there's a problem, until there's a problem. Quite problematic. There's no sign that these connectors will fail upon installation, becuase they snap in just fine. It's only after they've heated up and been driven that they back off and that's only IF they're bad connectors. Hotline told me there's no way to tell, all that they know is that there's a "quality issue" with some of the connectors and they're trying to determine which ones are failing.

I was told 3 times, by 3 different hotline seat-warmers, NOT to secure the connector with any kind of mechanic wire or zip-ties or anything, and just let the harness do it's job.

Until something new is released, I think we may have to just cross our fingers.

Dave

Aaron · September 6, 2008

I threw out a hotline on this today:

Quote:

Hotline Assistance Request

VIN: 1FDAF56R18EA67481

Vehicle: 2008 F-SERIES

RO Number: 338709

Request Date: 09-05-2008

Technician: Aaron Robertson

Request Form Details:

Description of vehicle concern:

Customer had vehicle towed in for runs rough, then it stalled, would not restart.

Diagnostics performed:

I have isolated the concern using bulletin 07-26-02.

DTC Codes:

P0003, p0091

Parts replaced:

In process of replacing high pressure pump cover gasket and harness

Tech's question:

I have had several reports from other Powerstroke technicians of failures of the connectors or solenoid plugs shortly after performing this repair, causing a repeat of the original concern, or a stalling when hot after the connector backs out of the solenoid. I have also been told that this is a known issue. Are there any steps I can take to prevent a repeat repair and "Fix It Right The First Time?". As you know this is not a light mechanical job and I would like to be sure the repair integrity will remain.

Hotline recommendation:

Aaron, when you install the new high pressure fuel pump cover gasket make sure the PCV and VCV connectors "Click" in. My suggestion would be to lightly pull on the connector when they are connected to confirm the connection is seated correctly.

Call Log:

Dealer has not called hotline for this vehicle/concern.

Print date: 9/6/2008 12:03:33 AM

At least it's documented now, that I asked....

Mad Crane Skills:

Posted Image

Like I'm a proud parent of a bouncin' baby shithead:

Posted Image

Notice the lack of headlamps...yep...cage nuts... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

Keith Browning · September 6, 2008

Quote:

Aaron, when you install the new high pressure fuel pump cover gasket make sure the PCV and VCV connectors "Click" in. My suggestion would be to lightly pull on the connector when they are connected to confirm the connection is seated correctly.

To me this suggests this may be an assembly issue as I mentioned having difficulty getting these connectors to seat on a couple of trucks. I don't recall any deformation of the connectors. This could also suggest that if "we" are to ensure the connectors don't fail we are to make damn sure they are seated and locked before installing the cover.

Quote:

Notice the lack of headlamps...yep...cage nuts... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

You look like you went through hell! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Do you heat the body bolts before removing them by hand? I have only broken one cage bolt but not since heating them before removing them.

DamageINC · September 6, 2008

Hehe, that looks a lot like the truck I just went through this ordeal on. Had the cage nuts spin in this one too, ALL of them on the left side and the right front one too.

The guy that owns the truck is bringing in another boom truck on Monday, this one's overheating this time. Last time he brought a 6.4 truck in for that, it only needed a fan, hopefully we'll get lucky this time too.

Dave

Aaron · September 10, 2008

It wasn't real fun.

What I ended up doing after the front two cage nuts, was heating the fuckers up till they glowed red, let 'em cool off then hit 'em with the gas-ax again and got 'em glowing, started winding them out, once I felt them pass the loctite, wound 'em out with the air ratchet.

The connectors did snap into place, HOWEVER, i DID have to push the locking tabs down on the connectors to engage the 'tits' on the solenoids.