Keith Browning Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Diesel Particulate Filter The diesel particulate filter may need to be removed for ash cleaning at approximately 193,000 km (120,000 mi) or greater (actual mileage can vary greatly depending upon engine/vehicle operating conditions). A new filter may need to be installed at approximately 4,000,000 km (250,000 mi) depending on engine/vehicle operating conditions. In both cases, the engine control system will set a service light indicating that the vehicle should be brought in for service. If there are any issues with the oxidation catalyst/diesel particulate filter system, a service light will set to indicate that the vehicle should be brought in for service. So I am reminded that this will become an issue before long after reading a topic on another forum. So I went looking for information on servicing DPF's on our Fords. I recall in training that the proposed option was an exchange program for dealers and areas where cleaning apparatus was not viable or available. Has anyones shop had to deal with this issue yet? Is there any Ford information I haven't found yet? It seems to me that a new DPF at 120,000 miles is not cost effective. I can understand 250,000 miles. Are any of the FAR shops equipped for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Anthony might chime in here, too, but here's what's happening at his IH dealer. They have not stepped up to the plate with the cash to purchase a DPF cleaning machine, so on the (few) DPF's that have needed to be cleaned, they have taken them to the Cleveland School Board, who has a cleaner. The reason the CMSD has a cleaner is they retrofitted several hundred T444E (similar to 7.3 PSD) busses to DPF's over the last few years. CMSD has the "air blow/vibrate" style cleaner that is good for cleaning ash, not a full blown oven for baking coked DPF's. I don't know of any Ford dealers wtih DPF cleaners. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 I don't know of any Ford dealers with DPF cleaners. Exactly may point. Are we supposed to sell customers a NEW DPF at 120,000 miles when it only needs to be cleaned and has a total service life of 250,000 miles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 I just had another thought -dangerous, I know... what about warranty and Ash build up? I don't think that using up a DPF should be covered under warranty. I mean that if the DPF is simply plugged, regardless of mileage it is a service issue. How are we supposed to document this or what are the guidelines? What should be warranty and what should be the owner's responsibility? The way I see it is any DPF replaced under warranty had better be broken up or black at both ends. I would hate to be charged back for that! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I'm pretty sure our local CAT house has a cleaning machine. I wonder if they'd be willing to tackle ours... Knowing CAT, I doubt it, but you never know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I got one today with 65,000 miles. My very first DPF problem actually. I checked the online warranty coverage and it's still covered by the emissions warranty. I have one ordered for tomorrow, and my fingers are crossed that Ford will pay without much fuss. I remember a Broadcast message stating that Ford definitely wants the used DPF's returned... I wonder if a FAD, or even FoMoCo intends to clean and repackage it as a "reman DPF" ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I mean that if the DPF is simply plugged, regardless of mileage it is a service issue. How are we supposed to document this or what are the guidelines? What should be warranty and what should be the owner's responsibility? Great point, and I'm glad I'm not the guy that makes the final decision. I agree with you on most of this- that usage of the truck is going to cause the majority of early DPF restrictions. The problem is, there are trucks out there with DPF problems that are definitely NOT the driver's fault. Case in point is a 2008 IH ProStar over-the-road tractor that is at our local IH dealer. No codes, runs fine, is worked like a bear pulling long haul freight, and the DPF is plugged with ash. Why? Who knows- I feel there are fuel control problems that are slightly beyond the norm that are causing excessive ash load. How about a biased sensor that causes the fuel system to run a bit fat or retarded in timing? How about something screwy with one or more injectors that causes excessive fuel delivery? They have this DPF thing figgered out on paper, but I guarantee it needs a bit of tweaking for the real world... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 Good for pointing out the variables that affect this. I was on the horn with the Hot-Line with a DPF/EGT sensor concern and asked about this. Well, if there was a fueling issue you would expect to have fuel dilution of the oil or injector trim values out of whack it should be detectable. Otherwise, his take on this as of now is that there haven't been any real known issues yet where a DPF on a Super Duty has been filled with ash... yet... and with their (Ford) testing these DPF's seem to be blowing out the ash. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif I am pretty sure that is what he said. This goes against everything I have read and been told so far. To add to this, there is no official cleaning program or exchange system at the moment. No way of determining if the DPF is soot plugged or simply loaded with ash. I could swear the PCM is capable of determining this... for instance there are several codes with similar implications but different possibilities. Starting to sound ambiguous? It is possible for a DPF to become restricted due to a performance issue, hardware malfunction or simply due to ash accumulation. Our job is to figure that out but apparently there is no guideline to back you up. Quote: P242F Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction - Ash Accumulation Description - The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the pressure decrease at the diesel particulate filter following a diesel particulate filter regeneration for a concern. The PCM calculates the amount of ash and the pressure increase the ash generates in the diesel particulate filter. During a regeneration the PCM expects the pressure to decrease. The amount of pressure decrease expected by the PCM is based on the temperature and flow of the exhaust gas. The test fails when the pressure reading at the diesel particulate filter pressure sensor does not decrease by the amount determined by the PCM. Possible Causes Diesel particulate filter is full of ash Damaged diesel particulate filter pressure sensor Damaged EGT sensor Damaged MAF/IAT sensor ---------------------------------------------------------------- P2458 Diesel Particulate Filter Regeneration Duration Description - The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the amount of time it takes for a diesel particulate filter regeneration to occur. The test fails when the diesel particulate filter regeneration has not completed after 25 minutes. Possible Causes Damaged PCM---------------------------------------------------------------- P2459 Diesel Particulate Filter Regeneration Frequency Description - The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the frequency of diesel particulate filter regenerations. The test fails when the average time between the previous 3 diesel particulate filter regenerations is less than a calibrated limit. Possible Causes Customer application Diesel particulate filter is full of ash ---------------------------------------------------------------- P2463 Diesel Particulate Filter - Soot accumulation Description The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the diesel particulate filter for a very high restriction. The test fails during normal vehicle operation when the diesel particulate filter pressure is greater than a maximum amount. The PCM immediately illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL), limits engine performance, and sets the DTC. Possible Causes Excessive amount of soot or ash in the diesel particulate filter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Lakin Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 http://www.donaldson.com/en/exhaust/support/datalibrary/042723.pdf We are considering purchasing this setup but can't seem to decide if it will be worth our while yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I just finished another Cummins course, and as it turns out the main branch in Mississauga has a machine that it capable of cleaning all makes of DPFs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I just finished another Cummins course, and as it turns out the main branch in Mississauga has a machine that it capable of cleaning all makes of DPFs. By chance, do you know if it's a shaker/blower type cleaner for cleaning ash, or the full blown oven style cleaner for cleaning coke? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I was going to say the oven type, but I did a bit of checking around, and it appears it is a vertical shake and blow device. Similar to the one on page 34 of this file http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/files/aftertreatment_training.pdf I believe... just vertical instead of horizontal to not take up as much space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The cat dealer that I work for owns a DPF cleaner(is a shake/blow type). We have quite a few customers that are getting to the maintenance part of the DPF life. In fact we cleaned 3 last week. The part that is interesting to us is that the container that the ash is collected in doesnt appear to have much in it even after 6 cleanings. I was going to ask what ford does for this. The manual for our machine has instructions for cat, cummins, etc but does not list ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 This is still an unknown as far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Maybe we should call "hotline"... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eeeesh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Maybe we should call "hotline"... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eeeesh.gif Actually, I did. On a DPF related call I asked about servicing "ash laden" DPFs and the Hot-Line had NO ADVICE. Maybe Wal-Mart Auto Service will offer DPF cleaning. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Quote: Maybe Wal-Mart Auto Service will offer DPF cleaning Direct from China made in sweatshops. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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