SteveS Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Here in the Puget Sound Region there are a couple main players that drive the economy, probably the largest is Boeing. When they are getting orders for airplanes and hiring people are happy, when they are laying off then money gets tight everywhere. There are many small companies that supply pieces to Boeing, so when the plane orders are decreasing it is more than Boeing employees that loose their jobs. So when the employees choose to strike (and I am not saying they are right or wrong, I do not have the numbers that they are basing their decisions on) there is a considerable ripple effect. As many strikes go there is a lot of emotion and the feeling of soladarity with other blue collar workers. I think that is fine, but it rings hollow to me when your "I'm on strike, Let's stick together, One for all/all for one" giant sign is on the back of a Korean car. Not even a foreign company with domestic plants. Is it just me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I don't think your wrong at all for feeling that way. theres this old grumpy guy /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grampy-jim.gif around here from time to time, if you really beg him he'll share his feelings on union labor ethics. My one pet peeve's about unions is the "it' not my job" attitude I find from most. Truly classic examples below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I just love the guy's driving around with the bumper stickers and I quote, " I spend it where I make it " on a F-150. Have they ever thought about where the big screens,monster stereo's,playstations,WII,computers and the best for last tennis shoes are made????? I could go on but why, I think you get my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Union guys make my dad a lot of money, they don't care, they don't want to care, so they call my dad to fix their shit. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 That third picture is a very convincing "playing possum"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 One of the inherant problems with collective bargaining is the ability for one side or the other to play the bully.... Rarely will the employer get the opportunity and, if he does, the media would beat the crap out of him if he took blatant advantage... OTOH, the Onion.... The Trade Onion will claw every nickel it can for the onion members - locally, we see floor sweepers getting around $20 per hour.... Pardon me... I see sweeping the floor as an entry level endeavour.... You get your foot in the door and now you get the chance to move up the food chain as you prove yourself (Hey - it worked when I was young...). Now I don't know about anyone else, but there ain't a floor sweeper out there worth $20 per hour... Following a broom around just doesn't take that much talent and, if push came to shove, someone else could stop lifting his feet out of the way and start sweeping his own work area. <GASP> Blasphemy... And floor sweeping is only the tip of the iceberg.... The wieners that assemble these wonderful machines we work on (you know, put tab A in slot B - missed? Don't worry, they'll catch it on the PDI...) don't have to know anything about the finished product.... Tab A - slot B - might be a bolt or a screw involved and the operation may or may not go as planned (if it doesn't, the shop steward can save our sorry ass)... But these guys are way overpaid for the talents and knowledge that they invest in assembly line work. When a collective bargaining agreement makes a $5 per hour job worth $20 per hour... the price of what-ever the hell it is we are making has to go up to cover the costs.... Pretty soon... the onion has chased another job out of the country and straight into the hands of some labourer in a third world country that is more than happy to work for slave wages. If some mook wants to thrust his onion beliefs in my face, he damned well better make sure that everything he owns or uses has a "union made" label firmly affixed. A onion member driving a non-union made KIA? Why not.... it was a trade union that made KIA profitable... by driving jobs out of north America straight into Korea....... Obviously, I have oversimplified a very complex problem and I've still wound up with more words than many would prefer.... Hypocrisy is only one of many problems plaguing modern society.... The onion will get it's member raises they didn't earn and benefits they don't deserve.... Once you get used to being spoon fed - it's hard to go back to being self-sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 BRAVO JIM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Hypocrisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Hypocrisy (or the state of being a hypocrite) is the act of preaching a certain belief or way of life, but not, in fact, holding these same virtues oneself. For example, an adult telling children not to smoke cigarettes, even though the adult smokes. Hypocrisy is frequently invoked as an accusation in many contexts. For linguist and social analyst Noam Chomsky, hypocrisy, defined as the refusal to "...apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others"[1][2] is one of the central evils of our society--promoting injustices such as war[3][4] and social inequalities in a framework of self-deception, which includes the notion that hypocrisy itself is a necessary or beneficial part of human behavior and society.[5] [6] In other languages, including French, a hypocrite is one who hides his intentions and true personality. This definition is different from that of the English language. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/coffee.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Im printing out jims speech and using it as ammo for my friend who's dad is on the board for a tile setter's union. We often have heated arguments about the union and how stupid i think it is, and of course his opposition. On Edit: U can tell the quality of work between a union guy and non-union guy. I've experienced it first hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I was fired for joining a union in 1978, which is highly illegal. The union "claimed" they'd get me my job back, back wages, scale pay, blah blah blah. It was a life experience that changed me dramatically! My Dad told me to beware, the unions would lie their ass off, and they did. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif Boy, did that change my life at that point and my perspective on unions forever. In retrospect, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, as it was Day 1 of being self employed, and I have 30+ years now. It did cost me my best friend at the time, who was a die hard union member. Steve- what happened in Yakima? Things get busy at the shop? You were on the roster..... Just got home after a red-eye home that changed in Houston, just before closing the airport 'cause of Ike. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Arent the unions the biggest in the midwest..not so much the pacific side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Arent the unions the biggest in the midwest..not so much the pacific side? Absolutely the strongest in the heart of auto manufacturing in the industrial Midwest. Cleveland has taken a BIG hit from corporations moving away from the union stranglehold to the deep South and Mehico. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 ... But these guys are way overpaid for the talents and knowledge that they invest in assembly line work. a "union made" label firmly affixed. A onion member driving a non-union made KIA? Why not.... it was a trade union that made KIA profitable... by driving jobs out of north America straight into Korea....... I would not suggest that the Boeing strikers are unskilled but I do believe that 1) any reasonably capable person could be trained to do most of the operations and 2) although called "machinists" they generally don't posess (what I think of as) that level of expertise (however, I do know a few genuinely skilled machinists that work there) and 3) they would not make the same compensation package at another employer. You're probably at least partly right about driving the jobs offshore by over-compensated payroll costs, but that was not the message I got from the loud & proud sign in the back window. Bruce, Everything was lined up with my reservation until one of the bosses' Dad took a turn for the worse. He has been struggling with health problems for quite a while and it was apparant that my boss would be taking some time off. One of the duties I perform is "bondo" (fill in where needed) and the shop would have not functioned very well with both of us gone. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif I was looking forward to it but there was no other reasonable solution than for me to skip the class this time around. Tony, Not too many automotive union jobs around here, the Boeing workers are with International Machinist and Aerospace Workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Jim I couldn't agree more, and I'm sure Aaron will chime in here shortly as well about the Union brotherhood we deal with on a daily basis,a bunch of lazy SOB's that bitch and moan all day about how they don't make money and how the company does them wrong ... blah blah blah bitch moan complain day in day out. If I had my way I would work in a non-union shop in a heartbeat but with times as they are I'm just glad to have a pay cheque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 --ACTION-- Gets out soap box, little broom. Brushes off soap box. Cracks knuckles, clears throat. Takes a belt of whiskey. --END ACTION-- Ahh, the Union. Where do I begin. How about the fucking union steward is one of the only THREE guys in our shop that doesn't have a mechanic's license, yet makes the same wage as myself and Shlep? OOOOR how about when I got a union grievance filed against ME because *gasp* I LOOK UP AND WRITE MY OWN FUCKING WARRANTY OPCODES?!. That's right. I am no longer allowed to look up or write my own warranty operation codes. I am still continuing to do so, but I'm not allowed to. This is shortly following my write-up, for working on my own car during shop time (I'm not openly admitting it here, the internet is an open forum). But what is documented is me pulling the forward clutch drum out of the case and installing a seal sizer, on my morning break, and pulling the low/reverse piston out of the case on my lunch, so's I could take the case to the local trans shop to get it matched up. The only reason THIS occurred , is our union shop representative raised a big fucking stink about it, because one of the seniority guys in the shop got caught, get this, IN THE PARKING LOT, WORKING ON SOME GUY'S CAR, WITHOUT A WORKORDER, DIAGNOSING IT FOR FREE, USING THE SHOP'S EQUIPMENT! And after he got caught, he screamed to holy hell that I was doing shit on my own car while I was not on a job blah blah blah. Okay, if'n I did work on my own car while I was on the clock, I'm sorry. At least, I had a work order on it, it's MY OWN CAR, and I'm not doing it for personal gain, and I am using my OWN tools to perform any repairs. I will sit on my milk crate beside my toolbox and read the paper, collecting the guarantee (of which I have collected a total of 5.7 hours on in a little over 8 months) so I can continue driving the parts truck home, using the company fuel and insurance instead of spending 15 minutes during the day to clean a couple parts and resize a couple seals, so I can get my daily driver rolling again. This comes from the our shop union steward, who tried to sell my ass down the river for this, and in the end result, ended up getting the other tech PAID FOR HIS TWO DAY SUSPENSION, as well as getting me wrote up. The only reason I believe I didn't get my ass shipped home was because I had a 08 SD cab in the air. $60 a month union dues for representation of what? NOTHING. The only thing the union does at our particular shop is allow guys to refuse work (which I think you should be sent home for, in my opinion), piss and moan about EVERYTHING, and hide behind a little green coil-bound book every time a little thing goes wrong or not in their favor. Guys bitching about AWA times, aftermarket warranty times, this, that, and the other thing. The guy that's Ford Certified to do auto trans? Doesn't do them. Guys in our shop spend so much time doing TRIVIAL shit, like figuring out how to complain about the (FREE) benefits package we're offered, or what they can file a grievance for to baffle people with bullshit paperwork. I had a guy come up to me, actually two seperate guys on two seperate occasions, and ask to see the clipboard I had. The one guy takes it, and says this is MY clipboard. I should explain, the clipboards are all left in front of the window of the tower while they are not in use. So I let him take it. Shortly after, the self-professed "Most Qualified Guy In The Shop" who, after spending 3 weeks trying to set pinion depth on an 8.8 diff in a Linc. town car, decided that that particular vehicle needed a housing. I had not been at the shop all that long, but I distinctly remember Shlep putting the proper fucking pinion shims in the car, setting it all up, and doing everything except putting the brakes and wheels back on the car for this particular tech. But I digress. This was the second 'clipboard tech'. He comes up to me, asks to see my clipboard. I show him, he goes "That's mine, I've been looking for it for like 3 days!" So I then say - Wow, no wonder you never get any fucking thing done! Shlep spends more time helping this guy than he does working on his own jobs. He doesn't get the hint that he's a powerstroke certified tech, yet he never gets any diesel work. He did a diag on a MIL on a 6.0 the other day, him and Shlep, actually - Shlep diags it down to a wiring issue between the MAF and PCM. So what does princess do? HANGS A MAF ON IT. THE UNION PROTECTS THESE GUYS. EVERY time I look across the shop, this guy is either doing a FLUSH, or MIA. I have NO fucking idea how this guy hides so much at work. I don't know where he hides, but I gotta find out so I can start doing it too. He'll "diag" something, order parts that are backorder, or USA stock, and once they get here? Guess what! SAME FUCKING PROBLEM. So now Shlep has to go over there and hold his fucking hand to diagnose the problem properly, so the customer can wait ANOTHER three weeks to get the PROPER part for his vehicle. Much like I now am supposed to hold the tower operator's hand to write up my warranty operations, since I'm not allowed to do it on my own anymore. So I'm up there the other day, WRITING UP A WARRANTY JOB and MAKING FUN OF THE BULLSHIT writeup, and I walk out of the tower? The union steward is standing there. I love it. Hilarious. I will add more, as I think of it, I'm sure. ---Gets down off soap box--- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Damn Aaron don't hold back, let us know how you feel. Are you sure your not related to Jim? As for the onions I was in the I.A.M. for about 5 years when I was at Cummins, Didn't do shit for me but watched a bunch of lazy assholes get paid for nothing, these fuckin guy's wouldn't allow a truck in their bay until the "utility guy" floor sweeper would clean it. I am at Superior now and couldn't be happier other than the ass kissin a few guy's do here, but that's okay I got thick skin and just let the small shit go. It's actually kinda funny they keep kissin ass but gets them nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Steve... I wasn't insinuating that Boeings workers were unskilled.... But I was asking how skilled you need to be for assembly line jobs..... I AM considering your post in a rhetorical, "what about onions?" vein rather than a "what about Boeing?" vein. Either way, it boils down to trade unions.... collective bargaining agreements.... These are, at the very least, Marxist in principal.... We are all reduced (or elevated to - point of view, I guess) the same level regardless of our skills, talents experience or any of the other factors that influence how good we may or may not be perceived at what we do... I know many onion members.... most are overpaid, performing what are intrinsically simple tasks that require little in the way of cognitive thought process... For many of these, integrity is at least as important as skills (in that the task is simple enough for most people to perform.... but integrity is required to ensure that the task is performed completely and properly) - and a man without integrity isn't much of a man.... I firmly believe that whatever branches of US government that deal with labour laws should look at Canadian labour laws for the baslcs.... After that, it is up to me as an individual to become proficient enough to achieve my personal goals and to function and interact in such a manner as to become a valued member of our stores staff (a TEAM member, if you will). FWIW..... driving around with an "I'm on strike" sign in the back window reminds me of an old saw - be sure that the boot you are pissing on today isn't attached to the ass you'll be kissing tomorrow. Driving around with that sign in the back window tells me he doesn't care about those that didn't want to strike.... I am a free citizen and I can make up my own mind without taking it to a vote... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Aaron... some of what you write isn't a bunch different from what I experience (where we do differ is interesting and we'll get to that in a bit)... For thing concerning guidance and instruction - where the F@#K is your shop foreman? Where the F@#K are the shop manuals? And why haven't these wieners taken the appropriate WBT courses? Used to be that my productivity was called to task many times a week... It's been several months and this is allowing me to concentrate on things that matter.... Instructing those less experienced on techniques... learning techniques myself... quality control.... the list is actually quite extensive and I feel that once you get up to about 5 shop employees, you HAVE to have some sort of a straw boss.... As far as working on anything that doesn't have a work order - be it mine, a relatives or a friends - that is between me and my employer.... I use my hoist and the shops equipment to work on a very good friends cars.... (currently the 69 Charger, the 06 'Vette and the SRT10) - these are jobs the shop will never see otherwise... This same friend has a 08 SooperDoodie.... Can we say "retail" boys and girls? This same friend is regional supervisor for a service rig outfit.... and can influence the purchase decisions of dozens and dozens of rig hands. Petty whimperings will always be nothing more than petty whimperings. "I don't like it when <so and so> makes coffee... it's too strong". Well, then - you make it... "I don't like to make coffee - I only like to complain about it". Suck it up, princess... lifes a bitch and then your folks turn your old bedroom into a den. Aaron, it doesn't sound like you are getting much for your $60 per month. Especially since the government of Ontario should handle most of your grievances, anyway. If someone wants to "act the princess" - he will eventually run upside of me.... I am the anti-shop-steward.... My allegiance is to my customer.... I do not abide anything that will keep this team from producing happy ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share Posted September 13, 2008 Aaron, At least you are not letting it upset you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif . I like the "belt of whiskey" step, I'd probably do that at least twice to make sure I had it right. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif All kidding aside; I comiserate with your situation. It can be very frustrating when people find ways to duck their obligations (their job) and get away with it. And then project blame on dedicated co-workers that just want to do the job. FWIW, people like that find a way to work their scams with or without a union, it is just insulting that the same organization that collects your dues is protecting them. Sucks that good people have to carry them. Steve... I wasn't insinuating that Boeings workers were unskilled....I didn't think that you were saying that at all; I just wanted to clarify that I was not saying that I thought they are unskilled. Just, as I believe you are saying, there are no special skills involved; so the special contract is probably not warranted. Originally Posted By: Jim Warman Driving around with that sign in the back window tells me he doesn't care about those that didn't want to strike.... I am a free citizen and I can make up my own mind without taking it to a vote...AMEN! Decided by logic instead of emotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 For thing concerning guidance and instruction - where the F@#K is your shop foreman? Where the F@#K are the shop manuals? And why haven't these wieners taken the appropriate WBT courses? Shop Foreman you speak of is a retired Air Force guy, who knows little of the real world, myself on the other hand, I have the unfortunate role of lead hand, shop manuals are very much handy either in paper form or on the internet and most stalls have a terminal. And FINALLY the tech with the most issues is "the most qualified guy" in the shop, one certification away from his masters...... Used to be that my productivity was called to task many times a week... . I'm called in every pay period with missing a beat about my "unapplied time" and usually given a stern speech on how it can't continue ..... If someone wants to "act the princess" - he will eventually run upside of me.... I am the anti-shop-steward.... My allegiance is to my customer.... I do not abide anything that will keep this team from producing happy ones. Funny you should mention this, our CSI scores have been higher now then ever before, and the battle rages everyday to make sure things are FIXED and the customer is HAPPY before the vehicle leaves. We were falling a little behind with the truck work during the middle of the week, so I approached another tech about maybe him helping a little if needed. So later that evening I'm sitting at home doing a WBT course and the phone rings, it's the tech I had talked to earlier, so he cuts right to the chase and said before he does any work on the trucks "he has a list of demands the HAS to be met" I'm totally pissed at this point but remain cool about it.... enough is enough, time to maybe start looking into hiring someone willing to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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