fjubain Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 What is the most common cause for hp pump failure on these 6.4l,this one quit on road and had #2 injector stuck open and badly over fueled that cylinder, after replacing that injector it ran for about 40miles and started running very rough, 4 cylinder missing and barely running.checked secondary fuel bowl and found shinny metal particals,called hotline and advise me to replaced all fuel component due to hp pump failure.Replaced pump, injector ,lines, filters and so on, truck runs fine and on road for over a month.Now we have a charge back telling me it is cause by fuel contamination , they found evidents of rust in pump when they took it apart.I never inspected the pump internaly and no shop manual says so, customer had fuel filters replaced and no water in fuel light ever come on (does prove out). Any hints how to convince them. PS very interesting web site Keith keep on the good work. Sorry about my writing, i,m french(not my fault HA! HA!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Replaced pump, injector ,lines, filters and so on, truck runs fine and on road for over a month.Now we have a charge back telling me it is cause by fuel contamination , they found evidents of rust in pump when they took it apart.I never inspected the pump internally and no shop manual says so, customer had fuel filters replaced and no water in fuel light ever come on (does prove out). Any hints how to convince them. Good luck. I went through the same ordeal and it was, in my opinion a total play on words. I had written up my repair as I should have documenting all of my findings and test data. Same deal, I replaced EVERYTHING as per the Hot-Line because the pump had self destructed. There was fine black "stuff" in the fuel sample I took from the test port on the fuel cooler. The stuff was debris from the failed pump. I took a sample from the HFCM and it was perfectly clean. Despite writing what I had observed the claim bounced because of "fuel contamination." We appealed the claim several times stating that the fuel supply system had shown no water, dirt or other contamination and that the debris found in the engine fuel system was in fact due to the pump failure. I suppose it all comes down to who is reading the claim and how it is interpreted sometimes. I commented to my Rep about this and he assured me that the people reviewing claims are well trained. I question their level of understanding because I felt that it was easy to understand that the contamination was limited to the engine fuel system. My only advice to you is that if you are absolutely sure that the quality of the fuel in the vehicle was good and there was no evidence or signs of contamination that you stick to your guns and re-submit/appeal until they pay the claim. The only thing I can say in Ford's defense is that if they open a fuel pump and find rust then they have a pretty good case however, if there is no way for you to determine that then how are you supposed to know? It is tough to fight this type of thing after the truck is repaired and gone. Welcome to the DTS. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kridd12 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 We just had a good one come through. Large fleet company, I mean hundreds of trucks per year brought in an 08 350 running rough. no water in fuel light on and no codes for water in fuel 12000 km. pulled fuel sample and a tonne of water came out. did testing to find that water in fuel sensor in fact does NOT work and never brought up that there was water in fuel. To me this would show that it is a ford problem causing the fail safe not to work. How is the customer supposed to know about the water if no light comes on. Ford said no to warranty to me and to the fleet manager. This caused a huge fight in calgary. Fleet is now thinking of switching brands due to this and 5 other trucks in fleet with the same issue of water in fuel light not working, all trucks under 15000 km and required 10000 dollar repairs. I find that a hard pill to swallow, but the bad part is we (the dealer) are the ones taking the heat for the issue. I know that contaminated fuel is not fords problem but the faulty failsafe is. They don't even want to pay for the water in fuel sensor because they say it's the excessive water that damaged it. All I have to say is I'm glad I don't have to fight with the fleet for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I know that contaminated fuel is not fords problem but the faulty failsafe is. They don't even want to pay for the water in fuel sensor because they say it's the excessive water that damaged it. Interesting. I was thinking about this as I was typing my last post that if water is getting to the pump how is it going undetected or un-noticed? I regard the HFCM as a decent fuel conditioner provided it gets drained regularly and OEM filters are installed as required. Water should separate from diesel fuel thus making it fairly easy to collect and remove. So unless something about the HFCM is defunct, how is anyone to tell if there is a water problem? Could it be the fuel itself? Is there something about the fuel or additives that allows water to disperse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjubain Posted November 21, 2008 Author Share Posted November 21, 2008 Thank you guys for your reply, very interesting point and we will re submit the claim. My point of view on this per customer, is that I understand Ford for not wanting to pay because of water contamination, but if the water in fuel light never works and this system is poorly design , how can the customer know if there is water in fuel system.How many customer comes in to your dealer with a 6.4l saying that the water in fuel light is on, personally i never had one, but several 6.0l until the reflash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kridd12 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 No matter how much you appeal they are probably not going to pay. In the last conversation I had with them over this truck they told me that it is up to the customer to make sure the fail safe for water in fuel works, So I asked if that means the customer should be taking clear hose with them to the gas station and filling up through that into a water seperator then into the truck to verify fuel is good. He hung up on me, and I wasn'teven being rude. From what I can tell even if one of their fail safes is faulty it's up to the customer in the end to pay the bill. Don't get me wrong water in fuel shouldn't be a warrantable concern but if you don't know about the fuel issue how is it supposed to be rectified before damage is done. Hotline stated that in the owners manual it shows that water in fuel seperator MUST be drained every oil change. I went through the truck and found manual and had some late night reading to not find the as forementioned quote. I guess it's only in the 5th rewrite of the manual. Once again this is ford faulting on them selves. Oh well customer dropped off a PO for the work. Crumpled in a ball and thrown at my head mind you, but still a PO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjubain Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 Thanks for the heads up, we will be very carefull next time and i,m sure it will happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The only thing I can say in Ford's defense is that if they open a fuel pump and find rust then they have a pretty good case however, if there is no way for you to determine that then how are you supposed to know? It is tough to fight this type of thing after the truck is repaired and gone. I would say that that is impossible to argue. We aren't supposed to take these things apart, and if we do, they will probably bounce the claim because of that. If you make the customer pay for this repair will he ever buy another Ford product agian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Swinging by a fuel station with with one of these engines is about the equivalent to playing Russian roulette with your wallet in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 If a Ford auditor hung up on me that would raise hell with me. I wouldn't let that down. This whole issue is making me mad as i read it. More and more people will stop buying Ford's because of their stupid business practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 No matter how much you appeal they are probably not going to pay. If you continue to resubmit a bounced claim Ford will eventually "pay" the claim but "pay" $0 ACES shows it "paid" not rejected so you can't resubmit it again. I replaced a long block in a truck after a meltdown of some pistons,since I couldn't really diag the true cause of the failure properly with out a full CSI type investigation I also replaced the EGR cooler. well long story short the entire claim bounced for the EGR cooler, we resubmitted it and they paid the engine and kicked the EGR cooler,the WA submitted the claim again for the EGR cooler and they paid it for $0 so it can't be submitted again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjubain Posted November 28, 2008 Author Share Posted November 28, 2008 Thanks David, we are now debating with our Ford rep the point that they do not allow us to open up the hp pump and inspect, there is no procedure in shop manual and if we open it up they are still going to refuse to pay, How are we suppose to know without any (csi) device, he actually agreed to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlchv70 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Ford/Navistar are often required by the supplier to return parts intact for failure analysis. This would be the case for the HP pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 This strengthens the case against Ford. The HPFP is not a field serviceable part to begin with. If there is no WIF code in the PCM and the fuel sample is clean then what exactly are we to to? Is this a sign that the Ford/Raycor fuel conditioning module is not effective enough? Is the WIF sensor at fault? Usually if the customer is negligent it is fairly obvious but in the service bay we can only rely on what we can observe and what our diagnostic methods will tell us. When a HPFP self destructs it tends to generate a lot of debris and if that debris hides any evidence of water or rust... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.