Massive EGR Carbon

[Keith Browning]

I took pics, just not available yet. I replaced an EGR valve the other day which was carboned up and sticking. Failed the EGR test so no brainer I thought. Since the truck had a recent history of misfiring and running rough and a couple injectors were replaced I thought little of it. PCM/FICM were up to date and the engine ran well.

 

The customer picks it up and comes back later in the day, smoking and no power. Same deal, P0404. I removed the valve only to find a piece of carbon in it. The manifold was not all that dirty when I replaced it and I chalked it up to one of those few trucks that come back with a rogue piece of carbon stuck in the valve. Cleaned it out and let it go.

 

Next day it came back. Same thing, P0404, smoking heavily and no power. Pulled the valve again and there were two pea-sized chunks of carbon in the valve. After pulling the manifold and the EGR cooler we discovered that the EGR cooler was 3/4 clogged at the outlet side and the manifold port is filthy too. There are no coolant leaks and the carbon is hard and dry. Never saw anything like it. It is getting a new cooler and manifold.

 

Ironically, I have another truck that had a bad EGR cooler and it must have been leaking for some time and very slowly. It only leaks when hot as I had to warm it for some time before it leaked. Nothing has that fresh steam cleaned look. In fact, the carbon is so wet, thick and sticky I gave up on cleaning it. Make that two manifolds.

[Aaron]

The dealer I was at in London, we were sending the manifolds out to a machine shop to have them acid cleaned when they were carboned up like this, as opposed to replacing the manifold. Seemed to work pretty well!

 

EDIT: I had the exact same situation you are dealing with on a short school bus. Sucked the big one.

[Keith Browning]

I guess that after replacing the valve I restored the ability to flow exhaust and the carbon in the cooler started breaking apart. I'm not sure what amazes me more, that I haven't seen this before or that this is the first time I have. I think we looked around for a place to have them cleaned and couldn't find anything local. We don't see too many that are nearly as bad as this and these two are only the second and third manifolds we will have replaced in 5 years.

[Bruce Amacker]

I did some classes at Franklin Power Products, the engine reman Level 1 supplier to both Ford and Navistar. In the 6.0 teardown dept, I saw a large pile of EGR coolers. MOST of them were blocked over halfway with carbon at the inlet. I'm betting this is a bigger problem than we think it is. I wonder about alternative methods of carbon cleaning the manifold- removing it, corking the inlet, inverting it, and filling it with carb cleaner overnight- probably 2-3 quarts of X66Q? I called my local machine shop and he did not have any way of cleaning it, nor did he know of anything local. He claims the EPA clamped down on acid baths and most shops eliminated them.

 

How much is a new manifold?

 

 

 

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[mchan68]

Not to hijack this thread, has anyone had any experience with the EGR delete systems on these trucks? Do any of you carry this "repair" out, if requested by the customer AND the vehicle is out of warranty?

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

I was surfing the net and came across this sounds like the ticket.

 

http://www.kitchenstuff.com/items.asp?Cc=CarbonCleaners&iTpStatus=1&Tp=

[Bruce Amacker]

I was surfing the net and came across this sounds like the ticket.

 

http://www.kitchenstuff.com/items.asp?Cc=CarbonCleaners&iTpStatus=1&Tp=

That stuff reminds me of the solution used in Motorvac injector cleaning machines. The gummint originally devised this solution- it had to melt carbon quickly, be water based and non flammable. It was originally made for cleaning the carbon out of gun barrels in giant 12"-18" guns on ships, as they had to have something non flammable to work in an environment that has pallets of gunpowder hanging around. It turned out to work excellent as an injector solvent, also. I used Ford's injector solvent in my Motorvac unit and it worked great. I don't have the PN handy but it was about $5 a pint by the case. Perhaps this would work well for cleaning corked manifolds, too.

 

Any takers? Keith, I'll pay the cost of a few bottles of injector solvent if you have a plugged manifold.....

 

 

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[Keith Browning]

Warranty price on the manifold is about $457 and the cooler is $511

[GregKneupper]

I just use a regular pressure washer to clean the carbon from the egr ports. It actually does a really good job getting the big chunks out of it and not a single one has ever come back. I clean the intake on every cooler job I do.

[Tony302600]

ON CP tickets i always sell a intake cleaning, but lately the international became lazy and took forever so we put the halt on that.

 

I've seen a egr cooler 100% clogged, was doing head gaskets when i saw it.

[Keith Browning]

When you use a pressure washer, where does the waste water go? Use carb cleaner and where do you rinse it or flush out the chemicals... not to mention the hydrocarbon laden carbon? I imagine this stuff is not only a real mess to deal with but it is also hazardous waste that needs to be controlled. Ever clean one in your parts washer? You wont be cleaning anything else in it after you get done.

 

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When I "clean" an intake it is always in conjunction with an EGR replacement and it is limited to the mixer area. I remove the valve and the intake elbow and I stuff a rag down each runner then I scrape it down and suck the chunks with a vacuum. Then a I spray it down with combustion chamber cleaner and let it soak for a while. Then I scrub it down with a brush and rinse it with some more combustion chamber cleaner or Brakleen sopping the liquid up with shop rags (which the uniform company gets to clean) They usually come out pretty clean but this does neglect the cooler to valve passage. I rarely have issues but in a case like this one you do what you have to I suppose.

 

I have heard the advice to pull the valve then start the engine but that makes more of a mess than anything else. I also think that leaves the potential for bad things to happen. I tried it once. The engine barely ran and I could not get any RPM's out of it. Now, I did pull an EGR valve apart and cut it up, then I welded some plates over the intake ports and cut the valve end off and welded it to the valve body... I never got around to welding the second plate but my intention was to use this thing by sticking it in where the valve goes. Then I would be able to run the engine with the intake sealed and exhaust would blow straight out the top of the valve. In theory you could run the engine up to 3800 RPM and not worry about blowing carbon into the intake and cylinders. Also, being able to rev the crap out of the engine and you get maximum flow through the cooler and manifold port.

 

I should dig this thing out and finish it but I think I was not satisfied with brazing the plug together. I don't have a welder. It might also be a good idea to weld an angled pipe to the end and aim it away from the engine compartment.

[Bruce Amacker]

OK, I had a bit of time to play today. I found some of the injector cleaner at the shop that I spoke about in the previous post- but it's several years old.

 

 

I found a slightly crusty EGR and soaked just the lower portion for 4 hours.

I then sprayed it off with BrakeClean, (the non-flammable type, not the flammable type that smells like lacquer thinner and removes carbon /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif) but used no brush of any sort to remove the carbon. I think it made quite a bit of difference- enough to warrant a full scale trial on an intake manifold.

 

 

I'm thinking cork the inlet and EGR holes (no small task), 3-5 pints of injector cleaner, let it soak overnight, and pressure wash it in the morning. I know customers are gonna scream bloody murder about buying a manifold 'cause it's coked up. Especially when it's the better part of a grand at list.......

 

 

Comments? Can someone get a price and availability on PM-5?

 

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[GregKneupper]

when I pressure wash one I just do it outside against the building. We do not have any solvent tanks in the shop. I also do not pressure wash the entire intake out. I just do the egr passage and around them as there is where the problem carbon hangs around.

[Fredsvt]

The local school district near where I work has 40 E Vans with the lovely 6.0.

They called us asking what to do about the coking problem, as they have EGR and then power related issues from the intakes clogging so bad. (lots and lots of slow speed idle time)

 

They were told it's somewhat normal, unless they drive the crap out of them, which is a non possibility.

 

They ended up buying spare manifolds, egr valves, coolers and a walnut shell blaster. They periodically pull the manifolds and egr coolers send them and have them hot tanked, blast the egr valves and intake ports. I have no idea what they do with carbon and junk going down the ports into the motor.

 

I haven't heard how long (or lack of) the egr coolers last having them hot tanked.

[Mekanik]

Keith,

We had one just like that. It started out as just a bad EGR valve. Then it would come back every couple days with a EGR valve stuck wide open. It eventually got a EGR cooler and it might have gotten a manifold too. I can't remember. It was a little bus.

 

I usally just scrape out what I can, then blow ot out with compressed air. I usally start it up with the valve out too. It might start a little hard at first, but I have never had a problem.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Quote:

Can someone get a price and availability on PM-5?

Hey Bruce my local FAD doesn't have it, but is supposedly still available. It only comes in case qty of 12. My cost is $4.24 a bottle, I'm sure dealer pricing is better.

[jaysonfordtech]

Anyone tried oven cleaner? I have heard it works really well for this, but have not tried it myself. I have had a few that I solvent tanked, hot tanked, then pressure washed with good success.

[DamageINC]

I've mentioned it before here, but I'll say it again.

 

GASKET REMOVER.

 

Wear a mask and go to town on these intakes with a can of Permatex Gasket Remover. YOu'll be blown away at how quickly this stuff just melts the carbon away and rinses right off. Worst case, you'll need 2 cans for an intake and it'll be pristene when you're done.

 

Just be sure to wear some kind of mask and keep your skin as far away from the death-fog you'll create because the stuff stings/burns pretty bad if you get any heavy contact with it.

 

Give it a shot, I doubt you'll use anything else afterward.

 

Dave

[Bruce Amacker]

Great tip, Dave, I'm sure it will come in handy!

 

 

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[Alex Bruene]

I've sent intake manifolds to the local machine shop and had them hot tanked with great success... and, I have a friend that is a trainer for BG products, and he's working on getting me their product to try out... it is basically an injector that installs in place of the EGR valve and sprays a cleaner of some sort into the intake for "a few hours"... apparently it does an amazing job... maybe once I get it we'll know more...

[Keith Browning]

I found out today that a Napa store near us has, or has access to a hot tank. Does warranty pay for this like outside labor or machine shop work?

[mchan68]

I found out today that a Napa store near us has, or has access to a hot tank. Does warranty pay for this like outside labor or machine shop work?

I just had a claim bounce for having the intake sent out to a machine shop. Apparently Ford is saying I should've replaced the intake. If that's the case, fuck 'em. I'll replace them if that's what they want.

[Alex Bruene]

I always make sure to have some type of hotline paper trail when I send an intake out. Normally they tell me to clean if possible, or replace if necessary.

[Keith Browning]

Oh for crying out loud! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif This is something else Ford needs to make a decision on and make it official. Next they are going to say that carbon fouling is not a warrantable condition.

[Brad Clayton]

First thing I imagine they would say is what is the root cause of this?

 

What are you guys finding as the root cause and will the intake have to be removed and cleaned on a regular basis or is there a fix to the carbon issue?