GregKneupper Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 All I have been reading about the past few months is how the big 3 are finally going to fail. The problem is that no one seems to care and alot of people want it to happen. The problem is that none of these people abviously have anything to do with the american auto industry. I for one and quite upset over the current issues and am very worried about what is to come. I have always driven fords and even wanted to work on them since I was in high school. I have worked very hard to move up to where I am and to have a bunch of guys on capital hill debating whether my job is worth anything does not make me feel to well. I know that I can probably get a job else where but I really like to work on fords and can't really see myself working on anything else. I am curious as to what everyone else thinks of this. I would like to hear from people who would be affected by this and not some reporter who does nothing but bash the american auto industry. What are your opinions on the bailout and do you think it should happen. I know these companies have problems and have made mistakes, but the idea of being forced to drive a foreign vehicle makes me sick to my stomach. Cars are about the only thing that I can still buy that are made in america. Enough of what I think, what are the other opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 All I have been reading about the past few months is how the big 3 are finally going to fail. The problem is that no one seems to care and alot of people want it to happen. The problem is that none of these people abviously have anything to do with the american auto industry. I for one and quite upset over the current issues and am very worried about what is to come. I have always driven fords and even wanted to work on them since I was in high school. I have worked very hard to move up to where I am and to have a bunch of guys on capital hill debating whether my job is worth anything does not make me feel to well. I know that I can probably get a job else where but I really like to work on fords and can't really see myself working on anything else. I am curious as to what everyone else thinks of this. I would like to hear from people who would be affected by this and not some reporter who does nothing but bash the american auto industry. What are your opinions on the bailout and do you think it should happen. I know these companies have problems and have made mistakes, but the idea of being forced to drive a foreign vehicle makes me sick to my stomach. Cars are about the only thing that I can still buy that are made in america. Enough of what I think, what are the other opinions. I posed basically this same question a while back and got essentially no response... http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=14575&page=1#Post14575 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I think eventually they will get help from the government, wether it is next month or after Obama is president. I bet that within 20 months of getting money from the government, GM will be asking for more money. I think Ford is doing the best of the 3 US auto makers. I'm a little depressed that there are so many stores and companies that are going out of buisness. I hear we might get another economic stimulious package, but where is that money coming from? Lets face it. This country is broke. But then every time there is a sunami, earthquake, or any other natural disaster we send people and money to help. How about all the money we spend on helping illegal aliens. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif But as far as the auto companies are concerned, I'm a little bit worried, but with all the cars and truck on the roads, as long as we can fix them, well be OK. Were living in tough times, but its not going to last forever. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I say bail out the big 3. If a sleezy company like Citibank gets 20 Billion, then American manufacturing should get a freaking trillion in my opinion. Sure they've made some mistakes, but you know what... The playing field is NOT level, in WW2, did Toyota and Honda stop producing cars in order to help supply our Army with tanks and planes- Fuck No...(At least not OUR Army). But the big 3 sure did. I think we owe it to them. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say the Big 3 should be permanently subsidized by Uncle Sam - Toyota and Honda are by the Japanese government. How quickly we forget what built the middle class - It sure wasn't derivatives and credit default swaps in Manhattan, It was Henry paying his assembly line workers $5 a day to build things in Detroit, and as a result- his workers could actually afford to buy the things they made. A bailout of Citibank doesn't help me afford a new F150, however a bailout of Ford does... This should be the test for any corporation asking for taxpayer help. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif The representative from Minnesota now yields the soap box /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I don't think a collapse of the "American" auto industry will occur. You have to remember that there are support industries and many other businesses in communities that also would fail. Something would be worked out I imagine and perhaps not everyone will make it. Remember Ford went into their Way Forward plan years ago and have been bleeding money profusely, but they had a plan. Let us hope it is what saves them or keeps them alive and well. And Lew, I don't think your post got blown off I just don't think a lot of people know what to make of all this. My opinion is as individuals and as a country we need to suck it up a little bit, work a little harder, expect people to start doing the right thing, be responsible and hold them accountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Back when I was self employed... when I was a small company... when I made my payroll every payday - back than, I made a few mistakes... The government, bless their friggin' heart saw my deliquent tax payments as a way to drive a stake through my heart. Not one shred of help or understanding did I find. And now... multi-national corporations with bean counters extrodinaire and over paid management and equally overpaid union labour couldn't see thge writing on the wall... couldn't get their Goddamned business ducks in a row... They already overcharged us for a truck... they squeeze the tech as hard as they can on labour times... and they are asking us to bleed a little more for them - on both sides of the border. I'm not saying stand back and watch the economy of north America crumble... I am saying make these assholes personally responsible for the house of cards that THEY built... FWIW.... neither Toyota nor Honda was around during WW2 so the tank production thought is getting made at nothing. As for your CitiBank bailout... when do two wrongs ever make a right? You guys are living in the henhouse and you are trusting the fox with the keys.... Elmer Fudd said it best.... "Be afwaid.... be vewy, vewy afwaid....". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Well guys I think the big three execs are the axis of fail myself .Three private frickin planes flown to DC to beg for cash, and no plan to present other then show us the money, come on! I would have told them to pack sand myself! As for the business model it will have to change. The latest labor agreement is a good start on that end. They may need the tools of bankruptcy to make the needed changes such as renegotiate contracts to contract the dealer base. Some of us will lose our dealers, and with it our jobs but it is either some survive or all die. Look around you, how many Ford and GM dealers are there in your county/area? How about Honda and Toyota? Where I work it is 3 Ford, 4 GM, 1 Toyota, and 1 Honda. That cannot be sustained. What about GM’s 8 brands, or for that matter the Mercury brand they simply cannot provide unique new models for all the brands, they must shrink. Ford is on the right track with the integration of global platforms to reduce cost, I can’t say how GM is doing on that. There are lots of things they will have to do to survive, and perhaps consolidation of the auto industry is in order, but not combining 2 massively failing companies into one really big shitty company, like the GM Chrysler deal. The idea of Nissan buying Chryslers truck operations could be a good fit. How about Mahindra and Mahindra buying the Jeep brand to get their foot in the door in the North America? I don’t want to even get started on the disaster created by Hank and Ben at the fed and the treasury. That would turn into a 6 page rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Back when I was self employed... when I was a small company... when I made my payroll every payday - back than, I made a few mistakes... The government, bless their friggin' heart saw my deliquent tax payments as a way to drive a stake through my heart. Not one shred of help or understanding did I find. And now... multi-national corporations with bean counters extrodinaire and over paid management and equally overpaid union labour couldn't see thge writing on the wall... couldn't get their Goddamned business ducks in a row... They already overcharged us for a truck... they squeeze the tech as hard as they can on labour times... and they are asking us to bleed a little more for them - on both sides of the border. I'm not saying stand back and watch the economy of north America crumble... I am saying make these assholes personally responsible for the house of cards that THEY built... FWIW.... neither Toyota nor Honda was around during WW2 so the tank production thought is getting made at nothing. As for your CitiBank bailout... when do two wrongs ever make a right? You guys are living in the henhouse and you are trusting the fox with the keys.... Elmer Fudd said it best.... "Be afwaid.... be vewy, vewy afwaid....". Hu hu hu hu hu hu hu hu! Wew jus fuckin tame wittow sheep wit to much twust in owa so cawld shephads who sometimes fawl asweep aftew a warge meal of wamb chops. hu hu hu hu hu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Jim you're right about Toyota and Honda not being players during WW2... But Mitsubishi Was, and they built some of the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor. Not that any of this matters because we're all friends now (thanks to a couple over-priced American made bombs)... The point I was trying to make is that if for nothing else, there may be a strategic reason to have the production capability of the big 3 in American hands. And yes I'm angry about the house of cards built by the management of these companies. I would have no problem with a regime change of sorts at all 3 as a condition for said bailout... and I have no problem if the investors in these companies (including myself) take a haircut. Yet I'm not so angry about it that I'd be willing to sit back let that entire house of cards fall on top of me out of spite, and I feel that I have a vested interest in preventing it if possible. I don't want the manufacture of cars to end up like TV's where we just threw in the towel and said "Oh well, I guess the free market says we can't build them competitively." And just go on with our lives without a second thought as we walk in to our local Wal mart to buy on impulse whatever cheap crap we can put on our credit cards. Check THIS out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Jeff, I got a real chuckle out of the vid..... too bad it blames "big box mart" for all of the worlds ills.... I still shop "Mom and Pops" when I can... I do it in an effort to keep cash in my town... I do it in an effort to propogate personal and caring service... My whole life has been about being on a first name basis with my customers and having them trust my advice and judgement. However, too many consider price above quality or whatever else.... Do you gaurranty your work? "We're cheap!!!". Do you use good quality parts" "We're cheap!!". You see where this is going, don't you? The big three (with the aid of the American public and the unions) built this house of cards... And we are all finding out that there is no "chicken in every pot" - for those too young to remember, this was part of the American dream.... In your next life - stay awake in history class. The third world.... all of us speak of "sweat shops". Consider this. Take a man or woman... They have never had an identifiable income.... Given the a job in a "sweat shop".... It will seem like mannah from heaven... In broken English you might hear... "I earn two hunnad dollah las' yeah... I never make that much before...". Certainly they aren't going to be millionaires.... but their status of life has improved immensely.... But let's get serious about sweat shops.... Let's give all the sweat shop people a big raise.... (I'm not sure about any society whose only reward is to give everyone a raise - only to find out that there are many jobs that cannot support "pie in the sky" wages). In the case of China... someone is going to have to worry about the millions of people that DON'T work in sweat shops.... They will need a raise.... And now, a bag of rice that cost one whatever, will cost 100 whatevers.... Wow... have we made some headway here, right? What is it that has a tech bitch about how a truck is assmbled on one hand... and then has him try to justify some underachiever assembly line workers overblown wage on the other.... We need to forget "feelings" and to look at this shit in the cold hard light of reality.... The auto industry can't support multi-million dollar wage packets for management.... The auto industry can't afford to pay some wanker $70/hour for a $15/hour job.... And the clincher.... Will some of you guys compare your wahe/benefit package to that of the assembly people.... After you see that travesty - ask yourself if the assembly line guys is a much better diagnostician that you are..... Muck fe... I came from a world where I was responsible for my own actions.... Apparently, I still am.... However, it appears that upper management and union members are free of these human bonds... In the book "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors" (all of you guys can read, right?) John DeLorean quoted a high level GM manager as saying "General Motors is NOT in the business of making cars...." - if you want to experience the rest of the statement, I found the book quite entertaining. Wake up and smell the coffee... the USA is a trendsetter and pretty much controls most of the marketplace we call planet earth... but for all her good intentions, the US is merely paving the road to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Who cares what the CEO's took to beg for money. What do you think citibank and all the other bank ceo's take to their private islands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The auto industry can't afford to pay some wanker $70/hour for a $15/hour job.... I've been reading these posts and trying to bite my tongue. My viewpoint on this problem is that the decline of the US automakers is caused completely by the death grip the unions have on these companies. It makes my blood boil to see what people make in this town, and Cleveland is a very heavy union/autoworker town. We have multiple plants for all of the Big Three here,and they are all in the process of downsizing and closing, but the unions don't get it. They are SO big headed and will absolutely NOT consider big wage concessions to keep their jobs. They blame the Big 3 management, when in truth it is just as Jim says- paying a "grunt" $70 to do a $15 job. On the news the other day it said Toyota pays its non-union workers $38 and hour and they are glad to get it. Little training and no education is necessary to do these assembly jobs. A Big 3 assembly line worker is paid much higher than teachers, lawyers (yes, it is true for most), and other jobs that require 4-6 years of college. My wife has her Master's, almost to her Doctorate in education, worked in a public school system as a guidance counselor her whole life, and never made NEARLY what an assembly line guy makes at GM or Ford. And she's in the teacher's union! WTF is wrong with these UAW people? I am NOT in favor of bailing out the auto industry, but feel it will most likely happen. It's political suicide for any politician to suggest that the unions loosen their "death grip" so my guess is that the Gummint will pour a boatload of good money after bad and down the toilet. If I were running the bailout, I'd only give money once they got their wages in line with what the workers were worth. I have no problem with an assembly line guy getting $38, but $75 makes me furious. To add insult to injury, I know personally of several UAW workers who drive to the plant, punch in, and drive home while on the clock. Another recently told me he runs out of newspapers to read during the day, and they get all of them- so much free time on their hands while "on the clock" that they run out of newspapers to read? And they don't understand why the Big Three are sinking? Oh, my God...... Perhaps I should let you know that I started my career being self-employed in 1978 due to being fired over a union dispute. I was wrenching on construction equipment and joined the Teamsters when I was 18, the company found out about it and fired me immediately. Very illegal, but they got away with it. The Teamsters lied their ass off to me- "we'll get your job back, back pay, big benefits, blah, blah, blah" and it never happened. Do I have a grudge? Yes, and a F*&%$! big one at that. Let the unions drown in their own piss, for all I care....... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Quote: To add insult to injury, I know personally of several UAW workers who drive to the plant, punch in, and drive home while on the clock. Another recently told me he runs out of newspapers to read during the day, and they get all of them- so much free time on their hands while "on the clock" that they run out of newspapers to read? UAW= U AINT WORKING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I think we have bantered the topic of unions/onions before. I for one think unions, once very necessary, have outlived their usefulness and for the most part are no longer necessary. I am one of those individuals that believes a worker should be hired and paid for their ability, qualification and effort. Accountability plays a big role. While employers must be held accountable for holding their end of the deal, workers too need to be responsible and accountable for their actions. When we hear about union shops and the lack of effort and pride and the "thats good enough" attitude it speaks volumes. Not making enough hours? Not being paid top dollar? What have you done to better yourself to be better qualified? Improve your productivity? Leaning back and letting the union do your bidding seem like it will cost you more than it will benefit you. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif I agree with Bruce that the unions are a big problem but are only a part of the bigger picture. I think a large portion of Americans need to get their heads out of their asses. Corporate America needs have their asses held to the fire and government needs to get the fuck out of the way. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smhair.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredsvt Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 J.F.C. (sorry if I offend anyone) If a Toyota assembler makes $38/hr, I wish I could make that much. Plus all the benefits that they get. It amazes that this continues. Our shop has a customer, he's a retired assembly plant worker from the now closed Linden truck plant (GM) He spent 30 years balancing tires the machine brought him the wheel assembly, the machine put it on the balancer and tightened the wheel to it. He had to push a button to activate it, and hammer on weights, should he have felt like it. Then the machinery took it away. 8 hours a day, second or third shift so he could work another full time job as well. Here's what his pay was the last few years he worked there, 104k per year, plus OT, not including all his bennies. He always left his W2 on the dash of his car. Now retired, he's paid 70k, full free medical AND free use of a GM lawyer should he need one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 J.F.C. (sorry if I offend anyone) If a Toyota assembler makes $38/hr, I wish I could make that much. Plus all the benefits that they get. It amazes that this continues. Our shop has a customer, he's a retired assembly plant worker from the now closed Linden truck plant (GM) He spent 30 years balancing tires the machine brought him the wheel assembly, the machine put it on the balancer and tightened the wheel to it. He had to push a button to activate it, and hammer on weights, should he have felt like it. Then the machinery took it away. 8 hours a day, second or third shift so he could work another full time job as well. Here's what his pay was the last few years he worked there, 104k per year, plus OT, not including all his bennies. He always left his W2 on the dash of his car. Now retired, he's paid 70k, full free medical AND free use of a GM lawyer should he need one. That sounds like a really good gig. I think most companies would have figured out that they cannot pay this wanker 104k a year and all the benifits to do this particular job that is only worth 30k a year topps. You could probably train someone that just got out of high school to do his job in a few hours. What does that say about his job? Most companies would have figured this out before they went out of buisness or had to beg for money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Here's what his pay was the last few years he worked there, 104k per year, plus OT, not including all his bennies. He always left his W2 on the dash of his car. Now retired, he's paid 70k, full free medical AND free use of a GM lawyer should he need one. Reading that made my blood pressure rise to an incomprehensible level. I need to go throw up, and then lay down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Quote: I need to go throw up, and then lay down. Aaaron I think you just had to many.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sleep.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Naw, beer is $60 a case up here, so I try and avoid it. This location/job really ain't for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Quote: This location/job really ain't for me Is this a hint of a move back south to vinsorbon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustedKnucklez Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 $60 per case /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif I bet homebrewing is big up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 To quote Stephen King's THE STAND Quote: Mayhap it am, mayhap it ain't /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustedKnucklez Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 I've never been near an assembly plant at all. How does one obtain this type of job anyway? Is it similar to that of Longshoremen? I know a longshoremen that camped out in a line for 2 days to recieve a card to become a "casual" worker at the docks here in L.A. He had to accumulate something like 2000 hours of work in order to be eligible to join the union. As a casual he would get the crap jobs, and work crazy back breaking labor jobs for like 2.5 years. He is now a union member and makes over $100k per year with excellent bennies and retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 At the St. Thomas Assembly plant (Crown Victoria, Town Car, Grand Marquis) if you went in there, there was a room as soon as you entered, with a tray so you could leave your resume there. Most of the guys that work at St. Thomas get in from family connections, and a girl I know got a student placement there one summer, and was making $24.50 an hour. She said on fridays, on the night shift, there was a 'pizza party' with all the night shift employees, and she grabbed a bottle of sprite from the cooler that was supplied, and it was heavily laced with booze. A friend of mine's wife worked there as a security guard during renovations, and said the amount of fires caused by little hidey-holes set up by workers that left their lamps on or whatever was unbelievable. She would find places behind machines, and under stairwells with complete matresses, magazines, alarm clock, the whole nine. She told me that there was a guy that LIVED in the plant because he didn't have an apartment/house for almost TWO YEARS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 THAT IS EXACTLY the kind of crap that people need to be fired for. It is exactly that kind of crap that unions protect. It is irresponsible, unproductive and unprofessional. Not only is the union at fault, so is the management that allows it to go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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