The Big Three's Plans?

[Keith Browning]

I was reading through some automotive news feds and found a Google ad by GM that caught my eye. In response to Congress wanting a plan from the Auto Makers before considering bail out loans, General Motors has put up this web site in responce... I am looking for something similar from Ford and Chrysler.

 

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

[GregKneupper]

Keith, go to fmcdealer front page and check out the message from Ken Czubay. There are some links in his letter to fords plans. I have read the whole thing and I think that it sounds pretty good. Dont know if congress will go for it or not though. From the sound of it Ford is in a better position than the other two.

[Keith Browning]

Cool, thanks for the heads-up. I am off from work this week /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif and havent logged onto FMC Dealer since last week.

[ktmlew]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081204/bs_nm/us_autos_bailout_options_4

 

 

GM, Chrysler considering bankruptcy to get bailout: report 46 mins ago Reuters – …

 

 

 

(Reuters) – General Motors Corp and Chrysler LLC are considering accepting a

pre-arranged bankruptcy as the last-resort price of getting a multi billion

dollar government bailout, Bloomberg reported, citing a person familiar with

internal discussions.

 

In response to automakers' bailout plea, staff for three members of Congress

have asked restructuring experts if a pre-arranged bankruptcy -- negotiated

with workers, creditors and lenders -- could be used to reorganize the sector

without liquidation, Bloomberg said.

 

General Motors and Chrysler could not be immediately reached for comment by

Reuters.

 

Industry executives and analysts say the immediate carnage from a bankruptcy

of General Motors Corp, Ford Motor Co or Chrysler would spread throughout an

industry that is bleeding cash in a global slowdown.

 

All three automakers have urged Congress to authorize $34 billion in loans and

credit lines, saying they will restructure, and cut models, jobs and executive

pay to remain viable.

 

The White House did not dismiss the industry's $34 billion figure on Wednesday

but said it was too early to say what it might support on an emergency basis.

 

Senate Majority leader Harry Reid wants to try to find a way to avert threatened

bankruptcies in the U.S. auto industry with Detroit Three chief executives readying

for a make-or-break hearing on Thursday on the bailout request.

 

Negotiations currently are splintered among small groups, making it unlikely that

a proposed solution such as bankruptcy would emerge until next week at the earliest,

the person briefed on internal talks told Bloomberg.

 

GM's failure alone would mean more than $200 billion in interest-bearing debt

at the carmaker and its GMAC financing arm could be worthless for countless retirees

and taxpayers, further upsetting consumption patterns.

 

(Reporting by Sakthi Prasad in Bangalore; Editing by Anshuman Daga)

[ChristopherH]

I have been following some of the developements with the big three bailout talks and found this editorial at The Detroit News that I found interesting.

 

The Detroit News Auto Insider

 

I think there is a very valid concern here that in order to get this $15 billion bridge loan package to pass, the big three are giving up a lot in return. Consider the fact that government interference and regulations are partially to blame for the position the automakers are in right now, and with this package the government will get direct oversight over many business actions of the big three. Kind of like borrowing money from the mob to prop up your business... So much for the free market. Iacocca paid the government loan to Chrysler back early to get rid of the crap he had to deal with from Big Brother being involved--I hope that the big three have that option and that ability.

 

Also, is anybody else pissed off at how easily the government is handing out OUR money? The debt that we and our children are being saddled with is beyond comprehension. I really think its bullshit that AIG, CitiGroup, etc, etc. didn't have any trouble getting hundreds of billions of dollars allocated to them, but look at the circus they have put the CEOs of the Big Three through for a fraction of the money!! I don't recall them wanting to force the CEOs of these financial companies to step down in order to get a bailout like they are pressuring for the big three. I personally think when they were asked about flying to the initial hearing on a private jet that they should have turned that question around and asked just how much money these damn politicians have wasted. At least the CEOs of the big three are producing something instead of setting around on a high horse and judging an industry that they know nothing about!

 

Sorry about the long-winded post, but it helps to vent a little sometimes.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Al Long Ford closing, Looks like they took a buyout from Ford.

 

http://www.wxyz.com/news/local/story/Long-time-Ford-Dealer-Closing-Shop/34RPjlQPDkyMK_C_6iL38A.cspx

[ktmlew]

Tommorrow will be ugly!!!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos

 

 

Auto bailout talks collapse over union wages

 

 

By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writers Julie Hirschfeld Davis And Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers –

 

GOP Senators Revolt Against $14B Auto Bailout

 

Thursday, Dec. 11, 2008, … WASHINGTON – A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

 

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "terribly disappointed" about the demise of an emerging bipartisan deal to rescue Detroit's Big Three.

 

He spoke shortly after Republicans left a closed-door meeting where they balked at giving the automakers federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers.

 

Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the UAW was willing to make the cuts — but not until 2011.

 

Reid was working to set a swift test vote on the measure Thursday night, but it was just a formality. The bill was virtually certain to fail to reach the 60-vote threshold it would need to clear to advance.

 

Reid called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."

 

The implosion followed an unprecedented marathon set of talks at the Capitol among labor, the auto industry and lawmakers who bargained into the night in efforts to salvage the auto bailout at a time of soaring job losses and widespread economic turmoil.

 

"In the midst of already deep and troubling economic times, we are about to add to that by walking away," said Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the Banking Committee chairman who led negotiations on the package.

 

Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee, the GOP point man in the talks, said the two sides had been tantalizingly close to a deal, but the UAW's refusal to agree wage concessions by a specific date in 2009 kept them apart.

 

The autoworkers' contract doesn't expire until 2011.

[GregKneupper]

I am starting to wonder if I should just go ahead and find a new job with another manufacturer and get a head start on learning a new product before everything really goes to shit.

[Keith Browning]

I don't know about that. I believe that Ford is in the best shape out of the three. If enough dealers around my area close, and it looks like there will be, there will be more customers at our store(s). If we can hold out for the economy to improve and Ford's product continues to impress I see a turnaround.

 

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[GregKneupper]

I am really just being sarcastic Keith. I do realize that ford is in the best shape. Hopefully they can pull through this and be a better company in the end. I have noticed a dramatic improvement in the quality of their cars. I am just worried that one day the ball will drop unexpectedly and all of us will be hung out to dry. I cant understand how the big three just let the japanese waltz into the coutry and take over everything. It is time for ford to come up with something that will win these customers back. Toyota somehow convinced everyone that hybrid vehicles are the way to go and that is part of what has given them the competitive edge that they have right now. I personally am not convinced that hybrids are the answer to our problems. Ford needs to step in and introduce something that is better than a hybrid. Perhaps diesel cars or hydrogen vehicles. It is time for the american manufacturers to get their heads out of their asses and show people what they are really made of. I know that we can do better than them. We use to be the envy of the world. Why can we not be that again.

[Keith Browning]

I don't blame the "big three" entirely for the position they are in. You need to remember that CAPITALISM is what makes our country what it is and drives our economy. They build what we Americans want to drive and traditionally that has been large powerful vehicles and lately that has included trucks and the SUV.

 

Enter the United States Government. It is good to have goals where fuel economy is concerned. The CAFE standards are lofty and some analysts think that the standards being set for both fuel economy and emissions exceed the current technology and probably for some time to come. So in order to make more fuel efficient cars they are made smaller and lighter. Ohhh, wait a minute! We have lofty safety standards too! I am all for safety aren't you? But smaller lighter cars are not as safe as the larger vehicles right? The price of technology once again becomes a factor. How much are Americans willing to pay for a tiny car that fits two people and a bag of groceries? Sure, you can suck on the tail-pipe (if it has one) and hit a concrete barrier at 60 mph and maybe go farther on one fueling, but it is gonna cost you!

 

What about the trade policies the government has imposed? Are there any restrictions on foreign manufacturers? Not like those imposed on American manufacturers. Japan imports less than 6% (I believe that is accurate) when it comes to automobiles for example. There aren't any Ford or GM plants in Japan. You cant say that they don't or wouldn't build cars that they would purchase, Ford has done very well in Europe for example with models that meet the needs of Europeans and now we see growth in China. Again, what car would an American typically rather drive? A tiny car made in China or a nice roomy SUV, Impala or Caravan? At least we have choices - not all good ones, but choices none the less. Gotta love America.

 

Lastly, one of our favorite topics, the unions; driving up the price of an automobile assembled in American plants. What was the figure I heard on the radio? A UAW worker can earn as much as $78 per hour when you add in benefits and pension? Job banks? What the fuck is THAT all about? Imagine a company having to pay pensions to retired workers that equate to as much as 75% of their salary PLUS full health bennies and dental? Now the "Big Three" are at the Government's door step asking for money to subsidize THAT BULLSHIT with MY TAX DOLLARS? All the while the only people NOT MAKING CONCESSIONS IS THE FUCKING UNIONS!

 

I say let them declare bankruptcy and restructure. While they are at it they can blow the unions out and hire Americans willing to work for a fair wage and pension that is appropriate for the jobs they are doing. Apparently it happens with Toyota's plants on U.S. soil. But nothing will happen in this country until we get government out of the way and let capitalism work. With the current bunch of liberal hacks that want to control industry in this country the future does not look bright. Imagine them telling the auto manufacturers how to run their companies. When has Harry Reed or Nancy Pelosi ever built a car? Hell, these political hacks cant run the country for heaven's sake!

 

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[Jim Warman]

OMG... Keith is starting to sound familiar....

 

"Back in the day" we would often hear a 'sound bite' (we never used to have 'sound bites' like the term 'sound bite') I called the NIMBY principal.... Not In My Back Yard - used predominantly when folks would talk about nuclear energy to create electricity. Everyone is for cheap, abundant electricity - few are for a reactor in their back yard....

 

This has evolved through time and generational metamorphosis.

 

Everyone is for a safe car... nobody wants to sign the cheque.... everyone is for clean air... nobody wants to sign the cheque (you can see where this is going, right?).

 

Let's bring on the clowns.... Sure the UAW has improved the lot of many workers.... by artificially inflating production costs - paying workers more than fair value for skills and effort, and offering a benefit package that few blue collar workers (that's us, bunky) experience.

 

Maybe it is only the car companies that have been boning us for years... but the union has been holding our legs apart for them.

 

I think that the requirement to move production wages into line with those offered at other plants is valid and fair.

 

FWIW, I drove past our local golden arches last night.... they are offering $13 per hour for full time burger flippers.... and they still can't get enough people to run full shifts.

[jimmy57]

Those Senators that are so vocal about people giving up wages and benefits better take a long look at their own situations. Our government is running in the red and if they are so quick to say that people should go with little insurance and a reduced standard of living then let it start inside the beltway.

I am no huge fan of unions but it strikes me as odd that banking can get help and car makers can't. Savings and loans cost us a LOT of money a while back when we bailed them out. Mopar got help and paid it back with interest. If union busting is not the hidden agenda then what is?

[Jim Warman]

The people that are being asked to give up wages and benefits are already being paid more than they deserve.... The people that put tab A in slot B get paid a lot more than you do... And they don't have to figure out what is wrong.

 

If you feel that you belong to the same group that assembly line workers belong to... I feel sorry for you.

 

Assembly line workers have nothing to do with you.... get used to this very real truth....

 

One wrong will never make a right... neither will two wrongs, three wrongs or a dozen wrongs.... If you feel a union will make your life better... might I refer you to the condition of US auto manufacturers...

[Keith Browning]

Quote:

December 12, 2008, 12:09 pm
U.A.W. Leaders Blame Southern Senators
By Richard S. Chang

Ron Gettelfinger, U.A.W. President, addressing the media today in Detroit. (Rebecca Cook/Reuters)It’s getting ugly out there.

The Detroit Free Press reports that Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers, is blaming Southern senators, who he said are anti-union and anti-Detroit, for the defeat of the industry bailout bill.

Some union leaders are being more vocal. Several, according to The Detroit News, are accusing senators opposing the bailout of colluding with Japanese automakers to break the U.A.W.

From The Detroit News:

“What this is the Southern conservative senators trying to destroy the United Auto Workers, trying to destroy unions,” said Mike O’Rourke, president of a U.A.W. local at a G.M. factory in Spring Hill, Tenn., the home state of one of the most vocal opponents, Republican Senator Bob Corker. “It’s a sad day in America when the senators turn their back on Main Street.”

Jim Graham, leader of a U.A.W. local at another G.M. plant in Lordstown, Ohio, near Cleveland, accused the senators of acting on behalf of the Japanese auto industry in an effort to break the U.A.W. so it can drive down wages. Foreign-owned automakers have located numerous factories in southern states, where unions have less clout.

Most southern U.S. auto plants run by Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co., BMW AG, Daimler AG and other manufacturers are nonunion.

“There’s no doubt in my mind they’re doing the bidding for the Japanese auto industry,” said Graham. “If it smells like a duck, it quacks like a duck. It’s a duck. Those guys are being influenced by the Japanese.”

Union concessions were central to the bailout bill, which pushed to lower wage and benefit rates as early as next year, according to The Times.

Representatives for the union, however, refused to make any more concessions until the U.A.W’s contract with Detroit automakers expires in 2011.

Critics of the Detroit Three, including a number of lawmakers, have said that the average U.A.W. worker earns over $70 an hour in pay and benefits, a contention that David Leonhardt of The Times analyzed in his Economic Scene column this week.

[Jim Warman]

Here is David Leonhardts wage breakdown.

[GregKneupper]

This is just really a truly sad time for America. What it all boils down to for me is that these companies have been around forever and it looks as though they may go away someday. It is just so dissapointing to see that everything in america is for sale. And who is buying it all up? Foreign companies that want a piece of the pie. Everyone says "But they employ americans". Big fucking deal I say. Why cant a company from here employ our own people. Every damn thing I buy in some way goes to some one else over seas. All my kids toys, my furniture, my appliances, parts of both my cars, (they are both fords), and even my fucking beer is owned by some foreign corporation. Well the japs build better cars I hear. Ok. Maybe so. What is the excuse for china building all the pieces of shit that are sent over here. People sure love buying that crap up. I dont mean to rant but I am just fed up over everybodys non chalant attitude toward globalization. I am fed up with crooked politicians. I am tired of america looking like a joke while the japanese are put on pedestals around here. Everybody says america is the best country in the world. We do everything better and faster. It sure does not look like it when we all buy things from other countries all while waving our american flags made in china.

[Keith Browning]

Right on! I think I need a hug now. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

[Tony302600]

Amen. In my dad's line of business....he found out that ever since the companies that make the industrial appliances went over seas, that the jap crap is failing like crazy. He's changed 4 of the same part's one right after another until he got one that worked, one time. I sat there in awe when i was with him. Just said...well...what are you going to do. He talked to the owners and they said they can't afford to stay afloat paying the union workers. More work for my dad, but at what cost. Part's that would normally last 2-5 year's wont make it 6-8months. He can't stand the parts made in china, thats why his work vehicle is filled with 10 of every part he needs. LoL.

[ktmlew]

I am starting to wonder if I should just go ahead and find a new job with another manufacturer and get a head start on learning a new product before everything really goes to shit.

It sure doesn't look like they are going to make it IMO.

 

Once the manufacturer's go bankrupt the warranty is worthless...doubt "your" dealer is gonna want to pay for repairs?

[Keith Browning]

For the sake of the idea... say Ford goes under. Wayyyy under. Any good ford diesel tech is a potential free agent and could do very well offering support to local diesel owners. There are many variables of course but the potential to earn serious cash would be great.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Sounds like Keith is getting an idea....

[GregKneupper]

This probably is a stupid question but what is IMO?

[Shlep]

This probably is a stupid question but what is IMO?

In My Opinion

[Jim Warman]

Sounds like Keith is getting an idea....

 

 

He's getting "THE" idea...

 

Let's say Ford goes under tomorrow.... WWWAAAYYYY under....

 

Ford will leave behind a lot of capital equity... A LOT!!!!

 

Buildings, robots, parking lots, chain link fences, assembly lines, file cabinets.... Oooooh, file cabinets, you say? What corporate and technical "secrets" may be in them?

 

The idea is that this isn't going to be like when that greasy spoon at the end of main street shut down... This isn't going to be a small thing and it isn't going to be like someone snuffed out a candle....

 

Most of us will hardly feel anything at all.... Or does anyone believe that if Ford ceased operating as Ford - millions of people would stop driving?

 

Relax guys... get back to the business at hand.... The sky isn't falling.... If GM ceased to be at dawn tomorrow, all those people that drive GM vehicles will still need to drive some fucking thing....

 

I'm going to let you in on a little secret..... Ford engines run on a secret principal.... " suck - squeeze - bang - blow"..... These are the same secret herbs and spices used in Japanese engines...

 

Look at it this way.... you fix what is known as the "OttoCycle" engine.... (if you want to get pissy, diffs all work about the same and auto transmissions all work about the same... ain't no big thaing, Princess). If Ford bit the big green wiener before tomorrow AM or GM became none existant.... you are mechanic... you can fix.... or you should have the skill set...

 

But... for shits and giggles... let's say that by tomorrow AM, some astounding breakthrough was made with fuel cell technology.... nuclear FUSION on your coffee table became a reality.. This is the stuff that should worry you....

 

You guys are spending so much tiome worrying about the badge on the hood that you have lost sight of the fact that lifting the hood could turn you into a dinosaur....

 

Can we please... PLEASE get back to the task at hand....

 

Detroit is going to go where Detroit is going to go.... If you feel you deserve to take it up the ass so various bunches of schmucks can continue being overpaid, please make sure that MY needs for reasonably priced transportation are also met...