sdv4x4 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 P0611, FICM performance code. We have had 3 different trucks in 1 week come in with this code. One was towed in with a hard start concern. That one had all 8 cyl injector circuit low codes. and wouldnt start. put new FICM in (940 bucks, 3 weeks out of the 5 year warranty) Fired right up, ran great. the two other trucks also start hard but just cranked them alot and they fired up. Anyone else seen this code lately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 this was recently discussed. SEE TOPIC HERE I had a run on them a while back then didn't replace one for over a year, then recently we have another run on them . up to about 7 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I had one yesterday with the exact same scenario. There is a tsb about this and there are instructions for testing the FICM. You will end up checking FICM M power when the EOT sensor is under a certian temp. If the M power drops below 45 volts and the vpwr is over 11.5 volts then you have a bad FICM. You also need to disconnect the battery lead to the GPCM so it dosen't drop the voltage while doing the test. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/coffee.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Yep, just did one also. It's been running fine but setting P0611's for a few months now and I've been warning the owner of an impending FICM replacement. It finally began starting hard cold and misfiring under load. FICM_MPWR was down to 22v running! Replacing the FICM fixed it and FICM_MPWR was back up around 48v. I recommend to my students to keep a known good FICM on the shelf for diagnosing these because new ones are so expensive. They're easy to buy from boneyards for $100. ( http://www.car-part.com/ ) Merry Christmas! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Okay so we all have seen a ton of FICM failures, but has anyone determined what is causing the failures? Possible the board or drivers may not be strong enough to handle everything it has to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Ford doesn't come right out and admit it, but this statement in TSB 08-26-03 is interesting: "The calibration in the FICM uses a pre-cycle mode during Key On Engine Off (KOEO) / glow plug operation. This mode is used to rapidly heat the injector spool valve and prevent sticking during cold operation. During this mode, the electrical demand on the FICM DC-DC converter is near maximum." Many techs believe the latest induction flash has simply been too much stress, too many times and it effects longevity. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Okay so we all have seen a ton of FICM failures, but has anyone determined what is causing the failures? Possible the board or drivers may not be strong enough to handle everything it has to do? In my opinion: A. It's a module that handles amperage, causing heat, which causes deterioration of the internal electronics. B. The module is located just north of Hell above the left valve cover- not an environment conducive to long life. Ambient temps regularly exceed 300F in this area. I have not noticed E-van FICMs failing like F-models, as they are mounted on the firewall area in a somewhat cooler environment. (Anyone else?) C. The Inductive Heating Strategy flash is adding fuel to the fire by increasing the amperage and KWH it handles. D. The IDM was a high failure rate unit on 7.3's because of the amperage, and they were mounted in a cool area. I think 3/4 of the problem is heat degradation from amperage. Merry Christmas! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Even now... I am still catching techs reprogramming without removing the FICM relay in our store.... And I harp on about stuff like this. Imagine how many times this relay isn't removed for repogramming purposes elsewhere? Could this have a bearing on the fate of the FICM? Could a session like this be the beginning of the end for the module? For a while, it seemed like winter was the hinge pin for FICM failures... but we just came through a summer chock full of FICM sales.... What seems odd is the nature of the failure.... it always seems to lie in the ability (or should one say 'inability'?) of the voltage regulator/converter to deliver or maintain 48 volts. Most of the ones that I have seen will undergo voltage changes as the FICM is left powered up (and it's internal temp changes????)... One would think that too much something is going to be too much something and an open is going to be the result???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I dissagree that its related to the latest reflashes, i have replaced 3 in the last month that i can verify never had any of these reflashes, not even the running after key off one. One was an 04 with no flash since new! They are also very hard to come by right now! Any word on when more will show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I have to agree with cbriggs. The job of the FICM is to fire injectors. It does that very rapidly when driving the truck down the road. A few more rapid injector pulses shouldn't hurt it. What about sticky injectors damaging the FICM? When the truck is started cold and the FICM is opening theese injectors that are sticking, could that extra electrical load make the FICM work harder? Maybe that is what is killing theese things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Everyone should read TSB 08-26-03. It is nothing most of us Frozen Cannucks didn't know about already. However, it does absolutely nothing to help us diagnose Cold stiction in faulty injectors even though we don't really have much of a hard time picking out a faoulty injectors. I do agree that these cold injectors will make a FICM have a brain fart especially in -40C weather. I also beleive that the Inductive heating strategy takes it's toll on the FICM's, But so will base Battery voltage. I had one twoo weaks ago that would start missing under load and the FICM M-Power would drop to 30 volts under load and the engine would start missing. I could get it to miss by loading it up in the shop. But I noticed that when I had my battery charger on it, the M-power wouldn't drop and the engine wouldn't miss. Turned out both batteries were crap. Replaced both batteries and the truck ran like a dream. I do also agree with Bruce that sticking a computeror module with circuit boards and drivers and transisters in it on top of a cooking grenade is just a plain stupid engineering design. I guess we could just chalk the whole issue up to one Big piss poor design flaw after another with repeated piss poor attemps with design flaws in the attempts to repair this piss poor design flaw. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/coffee.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 So, once again, has anyone replaced a FICM on an E-Van? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/coffee.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Only one for me in the last six years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 So, once again, has anyone replaced a FICM on an E-Van? I don't recall ever having done so Mr. Amacker. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordMastertech Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Have done several E series van FICMs. Most were high mileage airport or city transport vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I replaced 1 a long time ago. I have never done a reflash specifically for sticking injectors on an econoline. Most of the diesel econolines I work on are ambulances that sit inside a warm shop and little busses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoWilimek Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I do also agree with Bruce that sticking a computer or module with circuit boards and drivers and transisters in it on top of a cooking grenade is just a plain stupid engineering design. I guess we could just chalk the whole issue up to one Big piss poor design flaw after another with repeated piss poor attemps with design flaws in the attempts to repair this piss poor design flaw. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/coffee.gif +1 I have never replaced one in an E-series...yet. Lots of F-series done in this shop and we used to keep a new one in stock at all times until they got backordered. I don't know if we got one back in stock yet. to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ford.gifand IH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 With regard to the FICM being bolted on the engine, how many other manufacturers do the same? I know that a CAT C7 has the ECM bolted directly on the block. This is due to the fact that an engine manufacturer has no choice when designing their engines than to provide secure placement of their control modules. So I think this would also be true with a Cummins engine and others. Not that that makes it the best idea... I agree that the heat from the engine certainly is not good for any electronic component, especially a module. The new TSB is from what I can tell, a process for technicians to PROPERLY diagnose module related concerns. The tests will help discover harness problems and operating conditions that WILL impact the operation of the module. Electrical devices do not withstand extended low voltage operation and high resistance in power and ground circuits. It's cool that they offer us straight time to ensure we take the time to go through the steps. Unfortunately my company limits the amount of straight time they are "willing" to claim... a by-product of the bullying from the warranty Nazi's. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/borgsmile-1.gif Our suffering continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Some of the Big Bore Cummins Celect engines use a ECM cooler plate that mounts to the block and the ECM mounts to the cooler, Cummins uses fuel to cool the ECM's. It's the same size as the ECM and has a inlet and outlet, obviously. It also has a one way check valve in the inlet to stop the fuel from draining back and losing prime. Cummins has had heat sink issues in the past and found that this system worked well. The CM550 and CM870 ECM's produced alot of heat from the Drivers they were built with on the newer IS series engines. The newer ISB HPCR engines have the ECM suspended away from the blocks and the lift pump mounted between the ECM and the block. I don't know of any real issues with them as of yet. I thought there was a TSB about the mounting on the valve cover grommets on the 6.0. Could this be a fix that Ford has for some of the heat transfer? It seems to move the ECM a little farther away from the v/c's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Dwayne... I did a little research for us.... TSB 08-26-3 supercedes TWO TSBs... one is the cold stiction, inductive heat TSB... the other an older FICM diag TSB. If we recall, 04-18-6 was short and sweet... when we see a TSB like this, we can assume that Ford thinks we are all abject idiots and they are trying to reduce the number of flat rate diagnostic errors... These would be the ones where someone changes a module - THEN finds the open circuit/pushed out pin and quietly fixes it... adding that the module failure is "intermittent" on the RO.... TSB 07-5-4 is all about inductive heating. I can't find the text of that TSB... BUT, I do have some old WSM DVDs around that should have it... (Ahh, time is such a commodity). I do recall the mention that if the inductive heat flash didn't fix a cold start/run and the truck ran fine when warm that the concern likely wasn't a fuel injector... we've seen the fallacy in that on occasion (source would be - from memory) some sort of FordStar broadcast (dieseltalk IIRC). By this point in time, one would expect that stiction is no longer an issue - but this is assuming that there are no idiot owners left... we are still at the mercy of poor service habits coupled with an action called planishing.... this doesn't do the term justice and neither does this. Two surfaces can become so mated, that stiction is going to happen.... replacing the fuel injector is the only cure simply because of the "raw" state of the new surfaces... but even these will eventually planish/polish themselves into a problem... Part of that problem is 'ONLY' 48 volts (lets compare the 115 volt end of a 7.3 injector to the two coil wimpy 6.0 injector). The real comparison between the 7.3 piece and the 6.0 piece is going to involve a gaussmeter and we will need to consider the physical properties of the injectors.... this is way beyond my comprehension but I can see it as influential. So... where does that leave us.... not only do we need to fix these engines... but we need to report the repair in such a fashions as to ensure our remuneration. If you are going to read a document... any document... WSM, PC/ED, TSB, SSM I don't care what... take off the ball cap and put on your powdered wig (this is a Canadian lawyer thing). Any of these documents are important for two reasons... first, for what they DO say.... next, for what they DON'T say. SO.... I do not recall replacing an E-box FICM.... I don't recall cold start/run complaints on an E-box (all of ours would be ambulances or other garaged vehicles - Sheriff, LEO... what have you). Used to be, ignition modules would be bolted to the side of the distributor bowl... or hung on a fender well... or inside the distributor bowl... These are sealed units... By my guess - what is going on INSIDE of them may be harder on them than what is happening OUTSIDE of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 This leaves us with no Fuckin FICM's in stock and contantly on backorder. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whattodo.gif We are only to order two a weak and it doesn't matter if we emergency order them either. WTF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Order two a week whether you need them or not! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Even I keep a good used FICM on the shelf for diag and emergencies, and I don't fix trucks all day like you guys do..... HAPPY NEW YEAR! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Order two a week whether you need them or not! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Yeah, but lately we need two a day. They're poppin like Orville Reddenbachers man. Happy new year everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 The strange part.... BOTH FICMs AND 6.4 radiators.... we are only allowed to order "so many" at a time.... So... let's say we are only allowed to order two of each a week.... but three a week show up on our doorstep.... and now we are in shit because we can't fix these things in a timely manner.... Bailout or not.... re-aligning the industry or not... somewhere - somehow... a little bit of common sense is going to be required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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