EGR codes P0404, P1408

dieseldoc · December 24, 2008

I have a 2006 F250 with a 6.0 and a 6spd. Customer complaint is it is sluggish on acceleration and runs a little rough. I hooked up my auto enginuity scan tool and performed the KOEO(no faults), ran KOER(retrieved P0404, and P1408). It has been -20 for lows and -5 for highs here for about 3 weeks, along with a blizzard and snow. The truck has 1000 hours on it and only 30,000 miles. I asked the customer about his idle time lately and he said that it has idled probably 20-30 minutes a day and he has not been able to work the truck very hard lately. I didnt have much time to look at it today, I am thinking the egr valve is probably carboned up and sticking. My question to you guys is should I perform some more diag first, or just pull the EGR valve to clean it and the intake? Sorry for the rookie question but I dont have much 6.0 experience yet(since they are just starting to come off warranty). Any help is much appreciated and have a merry christmas everybody.

Bruce Amacker · December 24, 2008

I have a 2006 F250 with a 6.0 and a 6spd. Customer complaint is it is sluggish on acceleration and runs a little rough. I hooked up my autoenginuity scan tool and performed the KOEO(no faults), ran KOER(retrieved P0404, and P1408).

The P1408 is a circuit code- verify the circuit and connectors.

It has been -20 for lows and -5 for highs here for about 3 weeks, along with a blizzard and snow. The truck has 1000 hours on it and only 30,000 miles.

This is a 30mph average, which is not bad. FMC wants 33mph, so it does not have a lot of idle time. I've seen wayyyy worse.

I asked the customer about his idle time lately and he said that it has idled probably 20-30 minutes a day and he has not been able to work the truck very hard lately. I didn't have much time to look at it today, I am thinking the egr valve is probably carboned up and sticking. My question to you guys is should I perform some more diag first, or just pull the EGR valve to clean it and the intake? Sorry for the rookie question but I don't have much 6.0 experience yet(since they are just starting to come off warranty). Any help is much appreciated and have a merry Christmas everybody.

Warranty?

Keep in mind using any aftermarket scan tool only gives you about 25% of the capabilities of the IDS, so you're working with both hands tied behind your back to begin with. It probably needs to be reflashed, also. Do you have flash capabilities?

If someone were holding a gun to my head and I had to fix this truck with an AE, I'd pull the EGR and inspect, and perhaps clean it. I'm really against cleaning them, but I don't know what you're relationship is with the cust and why you're working on this truck. While it's out, clean the EGR hole and vacuum any loose carbon present, start and rev the motor a few times to blow any loose carbon out. While the EGR was out I'd also power it a few times on the bench to make sure it "snapped" well (power and ground to the two end terminals, polarity does not matter) and didn't stick. Pull the IAT2 (just behind the secondary FF) and clean it. If you had a spare EGR hanging around, I'd plug it into the harness without installing it, run the KOER test, and watch the EGR hanging in the breeze actuate to make sure the circuit was good.

Does it have any aftermarket garbage on it like a K&N air filter? These will cause false EGR codes. Pull the air filter and make sure the right side of the MAF housing is clamped well and not allowing dirt in. Inspect the MAF and turbo inlet tube to make sure there is no dust there.

Have you checked fuel pressure under load? Do you have the Ford diag sheet to help you point the way? Perform the diag like it should be and do not just jump to EGR conclusions from the codes. The diag sheets are part of the "Coffee Table Books" which are listed on the left side of your screen. Scroll towards the bottom of this page http://www.turbotraining.com/fpt.htm

to get part numbers for fuel test fittings and other helpful stuff you'll need for working on a 6.0.

Good Luck!

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dieseldoc · December 24, 2008

Thanks for the info bruce. I dont like to jump to conclusions just curious if I was on the right track. I will have to print off some of the diag sheets, and tell him we will have to dig deeper. I told him that was my guess without being able to really look at it. I am actually a little curious about this guy, He came to me because he "he doesnt like the idiots at the dealer in town, and I am not driving 40 miles one way to another one". To each his own I guess, the guys I have talked to at the dealer seem pretty decent. I asked how he got my name and number and he said a buddy of his but cant give me a name. I think I may tell him he will have to go to the dealer, I'm not equipped to help him yet. Something seems fishy. I have been looking for an IDS setup. I have been holding off because I dont see to many 6.0s and I can do what I need to with my AE for 7.3. I guess it is time to bite the bullet and get one, this is the third 6.0 call I have had this week.

Bruce Amacker · December 24, 2008

Thanks for the info Bruce. I don't like to jump to conclusions just curious if I was on the right track. I will have to print off some of the diag sheets, and tell him we will have to dig deeper. I told him that was my guess without being able to really look at it. I am actually a little curious about this guy, He came to me because he "he doesn't like the idiots at the dealer in town, and I am not driving 40 miles one way to another one".

50% chance the problem is somebody at the dealer, 50% chance it's the idiot owner. Proceed with caution!

To each his own I guess, the guys I have talked to at the dealer seem pretty decent. I asked how he got my name and number and he said a buddy of his but cant give me a name. I think I may tell him he will have to go to the dealer, I'm not equipped to help him yet. Something seems fishy. I have been looking for an IDS setup.

It'll be the smartest move you make, I can prove on paper the IDS will pay for itself quicker than any piece of equipment in your shop. You have 2 years of unlimited flashing. With just 2 flashes a month, the IDS pays for itself within a year- terrific ROI! Remember there's no bidirectional controls on any FMC CAN product with aftermarket scan tools. CAN started with the 6.0, but the changeover took place in '04-'05ish to 100% of FMC products.

I have been holding off because I don't see to many 6.0s and I can do what I need to with my AE for 7.3. I guess it is time to bite the bullet and get one, this is the third 6.0 call I have had this week.

Yow! Get an IDS!

Merry Christmas!

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dieseldoc · December 26, 2008

Yeah I here ya about the customer. I told him he will have to go to the dealer. I dont know what is with all the wierd people lately. I am definitely looking into an IDS. Where is the best place to get them, Rotunda I suppose? I have seen them on Ebay for less then from rotunda, but I am very leary of buying something like that from ebay. Is the tech support for non-dealer customers okay(I am not real great with computers when it comes to troubleshooting the software installed). I was reading old threads about IDS and you guys seemed pretty frustrated with it at first.

Jim Warman · December 26, 2008

E-bay is likely the "best" place for a VCM... Be aware that each VCM has a unique electronic serial number... While laptop support is limited to very few brands/models, that doesn't mean you will have troubles using pretty much any mainstream laptop as a host.

Aftermarket support and sales for the software will come from motorcraftservice.com. I would highly recommend keeping your subscription current since it will include access to all current module calibrations...

Added bonus... you will have the finest scan tool for use on Ford vehicles.... You can purchase subscriptions to add other marques to your repertoire (IIRC Mazda, Navistar - quite possibly Jag and LandRover, as well - caution... this is an assumption).

While the subscription may seem spendy - I am reminded of the usenet group 'rec.woodworking'. One of their mantras is "buy the best and only cry once".... the alternative would have one cry every time a poorly thought out tool purchase is used..

DAMHIKT.

On edit... I missed one very important observation.....

It is OK to "fire" a customer.... I have done this in the past.... Wednesday was my most recent event.... There are a lot of people out there that appear to be destined to make your life a living hell.... You don't need them....

Editting the edit.... When you purchase your software, someone will probably try and sell you on a VMM... I wish I had made some recommendations before we got ours.... The VMMs only claim to fame is it's help files... but even they can't be called "great". I would dearly love to have a scope like Bruce.

The odd thing... used to be you could use the PVT (pressure/vacuum transducer) connected directly to the WDS - a tool we all grew to hate in some manner.... A PVT ships with the VMM.... What was Ford thinking?

dieseldoc · December 27, 2008

Thanks for the info jim. I am somewhat picky when it comes to the work that I take on. Since the work I do is not my primary source of income yet, I can pick and choose the jobs that I do. When someone comes to me with a wierd situation and they can not answer my questions with a straight answer, I send them elsewhere. As for the IDS, it will be a little while yet before the budget will allow a major tool purchase. For the time being I am trying to get educated about the IDS. I have a Dell latitude D520 laptop, it does not have XP Pro, unfortunately. Is XP Pro still the required system? Maybe I should start a thread on the tools heading.

Jim Warman · December 27, 2008

AFAIK, IDS will not load on your computer if it doesn't like your operating system. I've heard of guys looking for ways to fool it, but nobody seems to have the answer...

My own take is to do things the way they need to be done... anything else might hurt.

Bruce Amacker · December 28, 2008

I am definitely looking into an IDS. Where is the best place to get them, Rotunda I suppose? I have seen them on Ebay for less then from rotunda, but I am very leery of buying something like that from ebay.

Ditto, but there's guys selling brand new VCM kits on Ebay for $1200, vs $2714 from Rotunda. Where the hell are they getting them from?

Is the tech support for non-dealer customers okay(I am not real great with computers when it comes to troubleshooting the software installed).

No, it's terrible for aftermarket guys. I actually logged a NASTF complaint about this, because it could be against the law depending on how you interpret the regulations. EPA rules state that the aftermarket must have access to the same information, scan tools, and training at the same price as dealers pay to make the playing field level. When the IDS was first released several years ago, I was initially provided telephone tech support, but after going from Level 1 to Level 2 and Level 3 tech support, someone figgered out I was not a dealer tech, and shut off my phone support (before I got my IDS working) which REALLY pissed me off. I logged a NASTF complaint which went nowhere. I guess the feds feel that tech support is not part of a scan tool. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif

I'd be less worried about this now as the IDS seems to work great on any laptop with XPP. I've had numerous students load it on numerous brands with practically zero concerns. Joey Kaylor has a program (Tweak NT?) to mimic XPP, but I was not able to get it to function correctly.

I was reading old threads about IDS and you guys seemed pretty frustrated with it at first.

Yes, but that was a long time ago and there have been many software revisions since. I'm always the first to jump on the bandwagon to try out a new product, so I have guinea pig tattooed on my forehead. My current hurdle is a wireless Bluetooth USB-Link from Nexiq to connect to IH's. Remember my threads about my problems with the wireless VCM card? I'm a glutton for punishment and still don't learn from my mistakes. I fucked with that Bluetooth for while yesterday on an IH, getting nowhere....

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Bruce Amacker · December 28, 2008

E-bay is likely the "best" place for a VCM...

Yes, but beware. The guys have a 99.5% positive feedback, but it doesn't pass the "sniff" test.

Be aware that each VCM has a unique electronic serial number...

Correct, and that's how they monitor your calibration access.

While laptop support is limited to very few brands/models, that doesn't mean you will have troubles using pretty much any mainstream laptop as a host.

Agreed.

Aftermarket support and sales for the software will come from motorcraftservice.com.

Correct, but dealer techs get phone support and us poor aftermarket flunkies get really shitty e-mail support. There's a WORLD of difference.

I would highly recommend keeping your subscription current since it will include access to all current module calibrations...

Absolutely!

Added bonus... you will have the finest scan tool for use on Ford vehicles.... You can purchase subscriptions to add other marques to your repertoire (IIRC Mazda, Navistar - quite possibly Jag and LandRover, as well - caution... this is an assumption).

Typo- NOT Navistar, which uses an RP1210 compliant cable to communicate. Mazda is included and Jag might be able to be added at additional cost. Honda uses a very similar system, the HDS, which uses a nearly identical VCM. I've heard of big software conflicts when trying to run IDS and HDS on the same PC without partitioning the HD.

While the subscription may seem spendy - I am reminded of the usenet group 'rec.woodworking'. One of their mantras is "buy the best and only cry once".... the alternative would have one cry every time a poorly thought out tool purchase is used..

I use this exact phrase in my classes when talking up the IDS.

When you purchase your software, someone will probably try and sell you on a VMM... I wish I had made some recommendations before we got ours.... The VMMs only claim to fame is it's help files... but even they can't be called "great".

Agreed. The only thing the VMM is good for is it's ability to graph along with IDS PIDS.

I would dearly love to have a scope like Bruce.

So, I'm a scope now? You mean a scope like Bruce's PicoScope, right? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Agreed. The VMM is a poor excuse for a scope and tremendously overpriced. A 2 channel or 4 channel PicoScope package can be bought for $500-$2000 that is SMOKING fast and versatile. There's 8 channel scopes on the market, too, if you're a true scope fanatic. ( If you have a minute, check out http://www.automotivetestsolutions.com/ and http://www.automotivetestsolutions.com/escopepro.htm. Bernie Thompson is one of our industry's smartest guys. The equipment he's developed is simply amazing, with the scope having different time bases for each channel, which no other scope has. He's got many other products that are cutting edge one-of-a-kind, also. The 8 channel scope lists for $4500)

The odd thing... used to be you could use the PVT (pressure/vacuum transducer) connected directly to the WDS - a tool we all grew to hate in some manner.... A PVT ships with the VMM.... What was Ford thinking?

Jim: Please elaborate on this. Why would it be weird to ship a PVT with the VMM? It's a common scope attachment used to watch intake manifold pressure fluctuations, exhaust manifold pressure fluctuations, and compression fluctuations for determining mechanical failures (leaking valves, bad cam timing, restricted breathing) and works REALLY well. John Thornton from Chicago, probably our industry's best instructor, has a terrific class on Mechanical Engine Diagnostics using a scope and PVT. It's absolutely amazing what he can diagnose with a PVT, how fast he can do it, and has the case studies to back it up. His Powerpoint was on Linder's website for free download, but I see it's been taken off. I could start a whole thread just dedicated to this topic. If you are a sponsoring member of IATN and did a search in the TDF, you'd have plenty to read!

Happy New Year!

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Jim Warman · December 28, 2008

Bruce.... Yes, I would like a scope like you.... With my coffee cup in hand and you as a "leg" man????

The PVT.... With the WDS, I had few connections getting underfoot in the cab on a road test.

With the IDS... whoa!!!! The power cable for the VMM... the USB cable... the VCM cable... the PVT cable.... my God!!!! I'm sitting in a snake pit!!!! The enormity of the project makes the graphing capability pale. What, in Yawehs name (no, I'm not a religious oddball - I just like keeping you on your toes), kept them from 'plumbing' the PVT directly into datalogger? This would have increased the tools utility - if they hadn't hired Rube Goldberg to design it.

In retrospect - what would it have taken to make the VVT tool and the PVT "dual duty". Both of these can be used in situations that are dependant on rpm or load... being able to connect them in either data logger (directly to the laptop) or in a VMM session would add utility.

Bruce Amacker · December 28, 2008

Bruce.... Yes, I would like a scope like you.... With my coffee cup in hand and you as a "leg" man????

Have you seen my legs?

The PVT.... With the WDS, I had few connections getting underfoot in the cab on a road test.

With the IDS... whoa!!!! The power cable for the VMM... the USB cable... the VCM cable... the PVT cable.... my God!!!! I'm sitting in a snake pit!!!!

I'm used to this shit from using a 4/8 channel scope and all of the attachments, especially with a secondary ignition adapter or breakout box. At least half of the time, the tech hooks something up wrong and all connections must be rechecked. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

The enormity of the project makes the graphing capability pale. What, in Yawehs name (no, I'm not a religious oddball - I just like keeping you on your toes), kept them from 'plumbing' the PVT directly into datalogger? This would have increased the tools utility - if they hadn't hired Rube Goldberg to design it.

In retrospect - what would it have taken to make the VVT tool and the PVT "dual duty". Both of these can be used in situations that are dependant on rpm or load... being able to connect them in either data logger (directly to the laptop) or in a VMM session would add utility.