Keith Browning Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Got a little dispute going on that I need to find a solution for and I need a little more input than I have experience for. I am curious as to what labor time you guys are charging to replace a fill set of 3-Valve spark plugs and what do you charge extra for each broken plug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoWilimek Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 2 hours +1/2 hour extra for each broken one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handtm Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 we charge 3.4 and .5 for each broken one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 As a base line factory time is 1.4 hrs and Chilton time is 1.7 hrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 2.0 for the tune up... 1 hour for the first broken plug, and 0.5 for each additional broken plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 All right, I'll weigh in on this topic as I just did a tuneup on my own 04' F-150 with these God Forsaken shitty designed plugs a couple of days ago. First of all: If just the ground electrode shield is broken off in the head, I believe that charging 0.5 per hole is fair on top of the tuneup or spark plug labour in the labour guides. Second: if the porcelain is broken off as well, 0.5 is no where near enough freakin time. This shouldn't be a hard argument if everyone's Management can actually read. The TSB states that the the Loctite 638 product must be allowed a "MINIMUM" of one hour to cure. And if you have more than one hole with porcelain broken off in them this can consume a tonne of time. And for anyone who argues this point, if you read the TSB and do it correctly, there is a crucial amount of time spent cleaning the porcelain properly with brake clean, compressed air and scrubbing the porcelain of contamination so that the Loctite product will adhere to the porcelain. My truck had two broken off with the porcelain left in the Ground electrode shield and I was successful in removing them. Therefore this repair for this tsb should be charged for in different stages as the TSB has different stages of repairs. I recommend charging 1.5 hours for the holes that have porcelain left behind and I recommend charging 0.5 for the holes that have just the Ground electrode shield left behind. And those times would be on top of what the labour guide charges for the tuneup or spark plug replacement. I think I am going to post this on the Protech site as well seeing as there is some discussion going on about it over there. And if we all charge the same industry wide within the dealerships, there will be no undercutting. And I feel that I have done a fairly accurate review based on the research of doing this repair myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 No other opinions on this? Did I say something wrong, or is everyone thinking about it? We tossed the idea around at work and came up with a couple of different theories. One was worried that that eventually customers would be taken advantage of. But my thoughts on that are that if your management is good enough and reviews your times, they would make sure no one is screwing the customer. The other idea was straight time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Dwayne everything you have said makes sense. The only question I have is...When you do one of these jobs, do you make time on it and are you happy to be doing it? To me it sounds like a shit job, but the way you describe it sounds fair for all parties involved. It sounds like you have the S/A's on board with the repairs which is half the battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 With repairs like this one, gain time is not what I'm personally after even though there are some techs that may be after gain time. It is just breaking even that matters the most to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Got a little dispute going on that I need to find a solution for and I need a little more input than I have experience for. I am curious as to what labor time you guys are charging to replace a fill set of 3-Valve spark plugs and what do you charge extra for each broken plug? My uncle has a 04 F150 that needs a tuneup done. I told him to have his son, (the ford engineer) do it because he was the powertrain engineer for the F-150, 5.4L 3valve. He didn't like that answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjubain Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I know these plugs sucks, actually i've never tried the new procedure per tsb, when it came out we actually had found something a little faster from the other website.I have not had any problem by just littly tapping down that porcelain with a punch until it kind of bottoms out on the ground shield ,then used the tap, after screw in the extractor tool we first received,It works great, after a couple i got the feel of it. After each one I extractI used the boroscope to look inside the cylinder for any crap.Only once i had a small piece of porcelain but I took it out with a small diameter long steel rod with dielectric grease on the end and I managed to remove the piece out.For the time, usually within 1/2 hour depending on which cylinder it is.Straight time for this repair would be fair or at least 1 hour per broken plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoWilimek Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 One of the long-time techs here is pretty good at doing these. He came up with a method to prevent porcelain from getting in the cylinders long before the latest tools came out. I can't remember the exact proceedure but it involved making an extension straw for a silicone seal tube in the caulking gun and injecting the silicone down the centre electrode hole in the porcelain before carefully tapping it down so the extractor can be screwed into the broken part of the plug. Only a small amount of silicone is required and letting it set-up ties the porcelain to the ground electrode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 And if you have more than one hole with porcelain broken off in them this can consume a tonne of time. \or spark plug replacement. Dwayne, your kit "should" have enough pins and sleeves to set up 4 broken spark plugs at one time. I know... I said "should". BTW, after having done a few of them, I don't find them nearly as difficult as the first one. Also, since I've been following the procedure for removing the plugs as listed in the TSB, they come out most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak And if you have more than one hole with porcelain broken off in them this can consume a tonne of time. \or spark plug replacement. Dwayne, your kit "should" have enough pins and sleeves to set up 4 broken spark plugs at one time. I know... I said "should". BTW, after having done a few of them, I don't find them nearly as difficult as the first one. Also, since I've been following the procedure for removing the plugs as listed in the TSB, they come out most of the time. We only have three Colet's for the pins, so we can only do three cylinders at a time. We also have to get our pins through the parts department. Can you believe these pins retail for $25.00 each. Thank God I only needed two for my truck at my cost of $15.00 each. And I may not have communicated in my first post properly that I do think the TSB removal procedure works fairly well although it is time intensive. I do see what you're saying about allowing more than one cylinder to cure at a time though. That will cut down on the time involved. I guess if you had three or four porcelain's broken off, you could charge One hour for the first hole and 0.5 for every other hole. But the More I think about it, I a lad could probably break even at 0.5 a hole. But if you only had one porcelain broken off, I would say to charge the 1.5 above the tuneup labour. But then again, straight time may just simplify these repairs. But the term "Straight Time" could also scare a customer. I guess it also depends on how well the front counter staff can eplain the complexity of this repair to a customer. Did you get the answer to your original question Keith? Or are you still scratching your head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shlep Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Matco has a nice little tool for these engines, it has a guide and pusher to push the porcelain down just enough for the extractor to thread into the remains of the plug. Works very very well. Part#: BPR65 ... it's on the Matco site for about 109.00 USD but the tool guys will work with you for a better price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 We also have to get our pins through the parts department. Can you believe these pins retail for $25.00 each. Thank God I only needed two for my truck at my cost of $15.00 each. Believe it or not, I smash any spark plugs I remove sucessfully and keep the centre electrode. That's is all the pin is. Give the a good cleaning with some brake clean and they work just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I heard today that there are some guys that remove the 3 valve spark plug with a 3/8 impact to get the plugs out without breaking. A couple guys have tried it and didn't break a single plug. I don't replace too many spark plugs, so I have not had the opportunity to try this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kridd12 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I used to use a 3/8 mac tools air ratchet. I never personally had one break. A couple of other guys in our shop used the same thing as well and never had an issue. All this of course got the dirty look of dissapproval from Miss Warman, but I still never had one break so ppfffffffffffffftttttttttttt JIM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I used to use a 3/8 mac tools air ratchet. I never personally had one break. A couple of other guys in our shop used the same thing as well and never had an issue. All this of course got the dirty look of dissapproval from Miss Warman, but I still never had one break so ppfffffffffffffftttttttttttt JIM. I made a reply... I changed my mind.... That reply is gone. Miss Warman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Here's another good idea, bad idea! Good Idea: Chirping Rex. Bad Idea: Chirping the foreman at your shop. Thus ends another lesson of Good Idea, Bad Idea for today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kridd12 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 HEHEHE.... I'm sure I'll pay for that comment on monday jim eh!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 When I left on Friday, I diaged a 3 valve 5.4L and I was trying to up-sell spark plugs. Would you guys think less of me if I used a 3/8 impact on the plugs to remove them? Jim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'll try anything at least once. I've even listened to Jim before. I even tried the Air ratchet idea that Kenny mentioned on my own truck and had absolutely no luck. However, I think a real torquey 3/8 impact would do better. So I may try that on my next tune up but I sure won't use an air ratchet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 James, I wont think any less of anyone that tries alternative methods in search of the elusive "better way". For my own part... I would sooner disassemble something with finesse (especially with apprentices and/or customers as an audience) than render something asunder using brute force... but that's just me. I don't think anything will be gained by running these plugs out with an air ratchet but it wouldn't be the first time I could be mistaken and it certainly wouldn't be the last... I would think that something that "impacts" one of these plugs out *may* surprise us - only one way to find out. I close my eyes and picture something that delivers very "short" blows to be the thing to consider... But, when the dust settles, I reserve the right to say "I told you so". Me? I'm the fussy old fart they like people to watch.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 well I must have forgotten that it was a 2 valve. We have a guy that bought a tool for removing broken 3 valve plugs from Matco. It looked like a nice tool for $100.00. The first time using it it broke. Now the piece that threads into the broken plug is broken off in the cyl head. It looks like the head is going to have to come off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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