nunan Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Alright, I'm about out of ideas on this truck guys so I need some assistance. Keith, if you're readin this it's Able's van. I've got an 08 E350 passenger van that I just installed a remanned 4r75e in. I installed it the same way i've installed every other transmission. Nothing special as far as I could tell. I test drove the vehicle and sent it back to its owner. On my test drive I did not note any excessive vibration or noise. 2 Days later vehicle comes back in with "a transmission vibration". I test drive vehicle and note the vibration felt, but to me it felt like the wheels were out of balance (very possible because our parts department doesnt like stocking the wheel weights for the aluminum wheels, atleast correct ones anyway). My service manager suggested it was a driveshaft, but to cover my bases i balanced the wheels and took it for a test drive, only to find out our machine wasn't reading correctly and misbalanced them. So, as per the service manager I ordered the driveshaft. Hotline was no help, as our shop does not have an EVA or a sirommeter, so it was basically shooting in the dark. I wasn't too happy about it, but I installed the driveshaft anyway. Still making the vibration, just not nearly as bad (probably due to properly balanced tires). Its enough to shake the passenger seat backrest, and be felt through the floor. I double checked all my bolts, made sure the Tq Converter was tight, checked my mount bolts, etc all tight. I checked my driveline angles while sitting on the ground and they were 4,-4 respectively. I cleaned the mounting flange on the diff, and also on the old driveshaft. The mount was installed with "rear' facing the rear. Trans fluid is where its supposed to be, nothing is loose that I can tell. Hotline also didn't know of any previous concerns about this. So... anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Step back and take a look at the big picture. Because of the original transmission failure, we were unable to perform a "significant" road test - meaning the slamming into gear and slipping into neutral didn't allow ME to take the van out of the parking lot. I did not notice any vibration. I don't recall your experience. You replaced the unit. You road tested the vehicle and state that you did not detect any vibration at that time. I take your word for it but sometimes we miss things, when does the vibration occur and did YOU road test the van under the same conditions as it occurs on your final road test after installing the unit? It is also unlikely that your drive line angles and the condition of your flanges would have magically changed during the repair. I question the decision to replace the drive shaft. If this is a new concern and your inspection of the shaft revealed no damage or missing weights then why replace it. Aside from checking wheel balance did you observe the wheels and tires for excessive runout that might indicate a bent wheel? Did you spin the tires and observe the tread for irregularities that might indicate a broken or shifted belt in the tires? Remember that there are literally thousands of pot holes between Morristown ans Staten Island. ...food for thought. I guess this van will be waiting for for me on Monday? Did you fellas miss me this week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunan Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 Keith, The vibration occurs right around 55-70 mph. The vibration is felt more when your on the accelerator, but still enough when ur letting it coast. Its a little slow today, so i'm going to take it for a nice long test drive and make sure its tested under all conditions. It was conrad's decision to order the driveshaft, and i really didnt feel it would fix it but i did as i was told. I cleaned all the flanges basically just to cover my bases, but the wheels were not bent as far as i could see personally. I checked, double checked and triple chcekd the wheels on the machine, and almost went as far as getting a dial indicator from my house to check it. The only thing i noticed was a slight shift in belts on one tire, but I've been told before that its okay (by various people). I could see the shifted belt causing the vibration, but I wasn't certain it would matter that much. When i intially road tested the truck after repair, I took it down 287 to 202, and took the backroads back. Its the same route i take everytime i make a major repair. I did not notice any vibration, other than the roads which i feel everytime i road test that route. I double checked all my bolts to make sure I didnt miss anything, just to be on the safe side. I haven't really felt a vibration quite like this, it really doesnt feel like a balance problem, but a shifted belt or broken belt in the tire could definately throw it off. When i intially road tested the van, i took ridgedale to 287N to 10E. So i did have it on the highway, but did not notice any vibration, minus the steering wheel slightly vibrating. I did not rotate the tires though. I did not want to take it on my usual long test drive, as i did not want to call up asking for a tow home. BTW, i actually saw an EVA on ebay for around 295. I'm seriously considering it at this point, as I hav no idea where to look next. Possibly converter isnt balanced right, but i think taking the weekend off and looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes will definately help me see the problem. and yeah, it's weird workin in your bays without hearin the AM radio lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Have you tried swapping a set of four wheels off a stock unit and road tested, to see if this resolves the vibration issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 and yeah, it's weird workin in your bays without hearin the AM radio lol. If you miss it that much you can listen to political talk radio on-line through your laptop - wabcradio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 First off, an EVA is an awsome tool to have for taking the guessing out of guess work like this. Second, I would do as Mike mentioned. Even try the spare tire where you think the bad tire is. Have you tried manually shifting into different gears when the vibration occurs to see if it changes with internal RPM's of the tranny? Just some ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunan Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 Just got back from a legnthy test drive. I did try shifting through all gears, put it in neutral as well to see what happened. Vibration stayed with me. I havent tried swapping the tires out yet, will probably try that monday. I never had the chance to use one, but from what my buddy tells me its almost never wrong. I think it'd be a worthwhile investment for the shop atleast, if not me as well. (the one on ebay anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Did you happen to index the driveshaft? (marking the shaft on the companion flange and re-installing it on the same spot) You can check the runout of the driveshaft by the flange for the diffefential. I can't remember what the spec is. I'm sure its in the book. Just because it is new dosen't mean that it is good. I have had problems with a new driveshaft before. The way I see it, that is the only thing you could have changed. (other than the trans) You said that it "felt" like a wheel/tire vibration. You also said that you did not rotate the tires. The way I see it is if you suspect a bad tire, it is a good idea to rotate the tires to see if the vibration changes. So if the vibration is coming from the floor and you rotate the tires and the vibration has changed and now much worse in the steering wheel, you can feel confident that you have a wheel/tire problem. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Chris... at one point in time I recall either a TSB or SSM regarding balancing wheels on E-box. It had to do with the design of the wheel (specifically the centre hole) no sitting properly on some wheel balancers... Check to see if this may or may not be the case for you. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate the vibration? Tooth jarring or "There, did you feel that?". And I assume that you've checked for runout with the wheels on the van? And I also assume that the vibration isn't FEAD belt or engine accessory related... Rechack your trans mount bolts for correct torque.... I kown all the ambulances I've seen have a habit of trying to shuck the trans mount bolts. And, just for shits and giggles, check the extension housing bolts.... the last one I saw with a concern there was a 460/C6 combo in a late 70s crew cab - but a LOT of money was spent by a LOT of shops looking for untorqued bolts. There is also a procedure in the NVH section of the WSM for "normalizing" the engine/trans mounts. Without the use of an EVA or cirometer, you can still train your pants-o-meter to get a feel for what would be a first order driveshaft vibration. On a known good unit, you can induce a vibration using a couple of worm gear hose clamps. Depending on tire size and rear gear ration, this would give you the feel of a vibration in the 2~3KHz range at highway speed (a *simple* wheel/tire imbalance would be in the 500~700Hz range). When you get old, you can rate the frequency of a vibration by how long it takes before it makes you want to pull over and take a pee. Whatever you do, do not blind yourself to the possibility that this was a pre-existing condition... there isn't a day goes by that the last guy to touch the POS isn't guilty for every "new" concern. And, if worse comes to worse, you can always ship it to Canton where highly trained personnell will fix it for you.... have the customer take his title and all sets of keys.... Wow, was that uncalled for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Whatever you do, do not blind yourself to the possibility that this was a pre-existing condition... there isn't a day goes by that the last guy to touch the POS isn't guilty for every "new" concern.Very good point. That reminds me of one particular vehicle I had couple years ago. This was an F-450 with a 6.0L that came in on the hook for a no-start. The flexplate had busted off completely from the crank, causing the starter to just free spin. After I replaced the flexplate, and the vehicle now started again, the vehicle was released only to return with a tranny that shifted extremely harshly. Looking back in hindsight, the "harsh shifting" was probably the root cause of the flex plate failure. Point being, I never would've known that this was pre-existing due to the fact the vehicle wasn't driveable when it came into my hands. Originally Posted By: Jim Warman And, if worse comes to worse, you can always ship it to Canton where highly trained personnell will fix it for you.... have the customer take his title and all sets of keys.... Wow, was that uncalled for Easy there Jimbo, YOU are going to help our buddy Rex get richer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunan Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Jim, As of friday, i did not have a chance to check the wheels for runout. Our shop doesnt have an easily accessible dial indicator and mine was at my house. I'm going to check on monday just to be sure. Its not engine or feadbelt related, for shits and giggles i even shut the truck off when it was vibrating in neutral and it still did it. coasted to a stop on the shoulder and went back on my way again. The possibility its a pre existing condition is there, but its not really a big concern of mine, as i want to fix it no matter what. I had loosened the trans mount bolts up including the crossmember and moved the trans around with a pry bar. than let it settle and retorqued everything. its not a tooth jarring, but its still noticeable. It wouldve helped if i didnt have such a frustrating week to begin with to somewhat cloud my judgement, but a nice weekend away from it will help me refocus and start from scratch. Thanks for your help so far guys, i'll keep ya updated on my progress..or lack there of depending on what happens lol. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredsvt Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Hi Chris, Able, as in Able ambulance? I'm really trying to hold back laughter here. This sounds so typical to me, if it's who I think it is... Are you absolutely positive it hasn't been dropped off a cliff, curb surfed or some other horrendous wreck since you installed the unit? I've had the unfortunate luck to work on their older stuff. When one of their dipweed drivers decides they don't like the van, they'll do just about anything to get out of using it. I'd be going over the entire van with a fine toothed comb. I've seen some really weird stuff from them. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Able Transportation from Staten Island. Following mine, and Jim's golden rule, start from scratch and assume nothing has been done... I balanced the tires and the vibration *seems* to have gone away... there is also general harshness to this van known as a "boom" while driving. This accentuated the tire balance issue. I am awaiting a third opinion on the fix. This one drove Chris nuts and I finally got my head around it today. There is more to the story but I am still a little too confused myself to tell it to you straight. Yes, Chris is on my team - in case you were confused about my involvement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunan Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Yeah, it was annoying the hell out of me. I knew it was a wheel/tire problem, just never got a chance to swap wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 The truck has a "boom" ? Is the truck modified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 The truck has a "boom" ? Is the truck modified? Big stereo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I wasn't talking about a bumpin system, I'm talking about a boom as in A cycling, rythmic sound often accompanied by a sensation on the ear drums. I did a little research and found some other definitions for "boom": Boom 1. When something is good, great or amazing. 2. When someone does something good, great or amazing. 3. When someone says something good, great or amazing. "That club we went to last night was boom" Boy smashes a window - "Yeah dats boom" "Let's go down the park and get some cider" "Yeah boom" Boom adjective used to describe a pretty girl. "yo guy, that girl is BOOM" Boom The defensive tactic that Muslim teenagers who are being bullied use to defend themselves. just yell, or write the word Bully: Hey, ACHMED, give me your lunch money! Ahmad: BOOM! Bully:AAAAHHH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Boom The defensive tactic that Muslim teenagers who are being bullied use to defend themselves. just yell, or write the word Bully: Hey, ACHMED, give me your lunch money! Ahmad: BOOM! Bully:AAAAHHH The bigger and older boys at work pick on me and take my lunch money, I should see if this works. I think my favorite noise description is "Chuckle" as seen on the vehicle inspection job aid the S.A.'s use I shoulda put a after my big stereo comment...sarcasm is lost on the interwebs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I "chuckled" when I read it, Aaron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Aaron, you didn't think that my reply was sarcastic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Oh, I caught it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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