Keith Browning Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 DRR, or Dealer Request for Review is our only real tool to voice our concerns with labor times. I had a conversation with a "Ford employee" who expressed concern that given the amount dis-satisfaction techs express about labor times there are not many DRR's submitted. So I am curious if any of you have ever submitted a DRR. What are your thoughts on the process? What are your expectations if any? I personally have never submitted one myself... and I admit that I personally feel it is a waste of time unless an operation is WAY off, having it reviewed will not affect any changes. I am all for participating but I don't like pissing in the wind or rowing against the current but I do think DRR's are important. I am on the fence here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I filled out a DRR on the 6.4L's engine R&I, Front cover R&I, Longblock R&I and Shortblock R&I times. The Jackass that actually does the work for ford in manual labour phoned me and basically told me he can do it the given amount of time and that no-one else has filled out a DRR on this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I believe that we need to be careful of what we wish for - we just might get it.... A DRR SLT review will have one of three results.... the time alloted will increase - the time will remain the same or we may be very, very sorry we ever submitted the DRR... The DRR process is important... but we really need to determine the "need" before we submit them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Yeah, I need more Fuckin Time! As Keith said, I don't think it s worth it at all. It's like banging your head into the wall or pissing into the wind. Jim and I had this conversation this morning and he said that sometimes the DRR can have a negative affect in a way that they could actually slash our times. Allot like the GCR system. GCR=TSB=SLASHED SLTS TIMES=ALLOT LESS FUCKIN MONEY IN MY POCKET. Jim told me this saying a while back: THERE'S NO SENSE IN WRESTLING WITH A PIG BECAUSE YOU ARE BOTH GONNA GET DIRTY AND THE PIG IS ONLY GONNA LIKE IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristopherH Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I have submitted three over the past few years and after a few weeks, I have always gotten a phone call at the dealership from someone at Ford following up. The people I have spoken with had no technical knowledge about the procedure--they just wanted to make sure they had all of the details about why I felt the labor time was too low. Nothing ever changed because of it, and I didn't hear anything from them afterwards. My feeling is that its a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I don't pay much attention to the warranty times, they are what they are, and there's not much I can do about it. I just finish the job and move on to the next job. It is really frustrating to see the times printed in the TSB's before you even start on a job and with several hours worth of work left your over the time being paid, but you can't submit a DRR on TSB's. Maybe the best thing about having this forum is that if someone is having an issue with a labor-op we will be able tell if it is a fair time or if there is a faster way to do the job or it needs a DRR. If we find a labor op that definitely needs a DRR we can all concentrate on sending in DRR's to get to the level that it does get reviewed. Also in case you didn't know how it works Ford has to have a certain number of DRR's submitted within a certain time frame to actually be reviewed. I'm not sure what those parameters are though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Sounds like another good section for this website of Keith's. I guess we could post DRR issues under the warranty section and see if it catches on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Sounds like another good section for this website of Keith's. I guess we could post DRR issues under the warranty section and see if it catches on. Maybe that me4ting with the hood did more damage than we previously thought. Dwayne, if you wore glasses, they would, indeed, be rose coloured... The DRR process exists simply to fill a need.... that is the appearance that the mothership cares.... Without DRR, we have no hope... with it, we can "believe". We can believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel (even if it is an approaching train).... We can believe that there is a chance that "we" can make a difference.... Even if we receive a "personal" phone call to tell us our concern has no "merit". Of course, there are those of us that believe the ads that say "no credit refused".... " no credit? no problem".... yeah, right..... Watch out Ralph... you might have company What really get's my nuts in a knot is that there was a bunch of guys that were trying to tke the DRR process to a whole new and very public level.... And very few of you fucking wieners responded. Let us continue to let the fox mind the henhouse.... Go HERE and check up on something that has very nearly died because of lack of "interest" - or is that fear of retribution? Don't be looking at Kieth... he never set out to replace this idea - when he started, flatratetech.com was already fucking this idea up.... Mark Ward did very well from empty promises - but that is a whole 'nother story.... Kieth set out on a course and he has kept his mandate - period. You want DRR? Get this class action suit back on it's tracks.... I got punted from the Ford message boards for speaking my mind.... I see the same shit you pussies do.... God.... I wish I had the tiny balls that makes one "politically correct". I can see it now. "You're right, Ralph.... Ford doesn't say 'install head studs' so we should never mention it.... James is a wiener....". Yes... I am getting bitter in my old age.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Go HERE and check up on something that has very nearly died because of lack of "interest" - or is that fear of retribution? This is the heart of the matter... not so much the site but the topic of DRR's and technicians in general. For the most part I think guys aren't filing requests because they are either too lazy or simply convinced there is no hope in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak Sounds like another good section for this website of Keith's. I guess we could post DRR issues under the warranty section and see if it catches on. Maybe that me4ting with the hood did more damage than we previously thought. Dwayne, if you wore glasses, they would, indeed, be rose coloured... The DRR process exists simply to fill a need.... that is the appearance that the mothership cares.... Without DRR, we have no hope... with it, we can "believe". We can believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel (even if it is an approaching train).... We can believe that there is a chance that "we" can make a difference.... Even if we receive a "personal" phone call to tell us our concern has no "merit". Of course, there are those of us that believe the ads that say "no credit refused".... " no credit? no problem".... yeah, right..... Watch out Ralph... you might have company What really get's my nuts in a knot is that there was a bunch of guys that were trying to tke the DRR process to a whole new and very public level.... And very few of you fucking wieners responded. Let us continue to let the fox mind the henhouse.... Go HERE and check up on something that has very nearly died because of lack of "interest" - or is that fear of retribution? Don't be looking at Kieth... he never set out to replace this idea - when he started, flatratetech.com was already fucking this idea up.... Mark Ward did very well from empty promises - but that is a whole 'nother story.... Kieth set out on a course and he has kept his mandate - period. You want DRR? Get this class action suit back on it's tracks.... I got punted from the Ford message boards for speaking my mind.... I see the same shit you pussies do.... God.... I wish I had the tiny balls that makes one "politically correct". I can see it now. "You're right, Ralph.... Ford doesn't say 'install head studs' so we should never mention it.... James is a wiener....". Yes... I am getting bitter in my old age.... I think you a need hearing aid more than I need glasses. Oh, and if you keep looking at the screen through a whiskey glass it will look distorted. What I was getting at was that if someone thinks they have a legitimate issue for a DRR, they could post it under the warranty section of theis website. Then the rest of the members could look at it an decide whether or not that it a good enough DRR. And at that point in time, if alot of us members filled out DRR for that same concern, we may have a slight possibility of having a fighting chance. I didn't intend for Keith to take a fight against Ford. And if you knew about this other website, why the hell didn't you promote it, if you are so gung ho for it? Some of us still have family lives to tend to and don't have as much time to sit in front that screen with a whiskey glass between between the screen and our eyes. I'm just pokin fun back at you. Don't get upset. And for the reason I won't fill out DRR's, it's because I obviously don't have any faith in them. I just thought that Slim's idea was a good one. P.S. Don't you when it's time for bed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 He's definetly a night owl. Either that or he gets up to pee alot and stops by the lap top on the way back to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I didn't think that what I may or may not do in the privacy and security of my own house was the topic of discussion... however, since it seems to be of some interest 4 or 5 hours is about all a period of sleep will last for me... I don't watch much TV... Now... for decades large corporations have been using psychology against us - yes against. Ever notice that when you go into an IKEA store, you don't get out without passing just about everything in the store? That is one of the more blatant uses of psychology... others are more subtle... you never notice that you are being manipulated. The DRR process for example. It's placebo effect is far more effective than anything else it can do. You get angry over an SLT. You submit a DRR and instantly feel better. Some drone at Ford phones you to see how really mad you are - are you going to be a trouble maker? - and to tell you they have no plans to review that SLT at this particular time... You get a little miffed but not bad.... You spent all of your anger pounding the keys while submitting the original DRR and there is little left to bubble up again. If they do actually perform a review, it isn't done at "arms length". That is to say Ford is assessing their own SLT... The friggin' fox has the keys to the henhouse. My loving bride is having a tough night with the Crohns disease that has afflicted her for over 35 years.... She has gone to bed early and I am trying to be quiet so she can rest. No family life again, tonight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It is nice to have a free nite once in a while, which would have probably been last nite, right? I haven't slept well lately myself. But beieve it or not, I beieve it is because I haven't had much to drink for a bout a weak. I find I sleep better if I have a couple before I go to bed. OOOOPPPS, highjack again. Back to the topic though. I guess we both agree that the DRR is absolutely useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I don't know if the DRR process is useless or not because I have never tried it, but I have heard of instances of it working out on the Ford message boards. I just don't think enough people care enough to have the process work. It doesn't look like it would take too much time to get involved, but I think most of the overtime on real world repairs come from things that can't be accounted for in a time study-eg. broken fasteners, extremely dirty parts. But that is what M-time should be used for and most dealers don't want the extra attention caused by higher warranty repair costs on the 126, and that is different topic altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Slim... this is where we need to be a bit vigilant (I am actually hesitant to reply.... ) but you US techs are treated quite differently from techs in other "worlds". Indeed - we are all created equal, but some of us are "more equal" than others. The cars and trucks we work on.... They are a mass produced, mass merchandised commodity. It isn't that they aren't built to run in my bailywick... they do that well... but they will live longer and better in yours... This is demographics and climatology.... No smoke. No mirrors. Just plain common sense... We can build a product that is VERY successful in maybe 70% of our market... and fall flat on its face in the other 30%.... We can improve the product.... but we might lose in the "bottom line". Now.... knowing that we may face a different reality between Georgia and northern Alberta... In the past, I have tried to liken it to what we see when we open our back door.... Very few of us live in circumstances that can be called "identical" - and this is an important realization.... Getting back to your point.... "Does the DRR process work?". Possibly... will somebody please cite an instance where an SLT or a TSB has resulted in "increased efficiency".... aka "a bigger cheque". Would the DRR "style" of process work better "at arms length"? Group several techs together and do a "wrench on" type study to deny Fords claims on blatantly inappropriate time stamps? With results in hand go PUBLIC with the news? Take Ford to task over it? What we seem to be able to agree on is that we will wait around for someone else to do something about it.... I am not far from the end of my career.... I am earning a nearly decent wage.... You young guys have 20 or more years of earning and learning left in you.... I have seen .5 of "remove transmission" written beside 2.0 of "clean mud".... Back in my day we had a word for that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 It is nice to have a free nite once in a while, which would have probably been last nite, right? I haven't slept well lately myself. But beieve it or not, I beieve it is because I haven't had much to drink for a bout a weak. I find I sleep better if I have a couple before I go to bed. OOOOPPPS, highjack again. Back to the topic though. I guess we both agree that the DRR is absolutely useless. Check your mail.... sometimes not everyone is amused.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Ever notice that when you go into an IKEA store, you don't get out without passing just about everything in the store? My first and last trip to a fucking IKEA showed me this, and FUCK did it ever annoy the shit out of me. That PISSED ME OFF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 That PISSED ME OFF. Which is much better than being pissed ON..... well, for most of us.... A friend used to have a "RedRooster" convenience store.... Fishing tackle was placed beside feminine hygene products... I suppose the message was "your weekend is fucked... might as well go fishing".... When you go for groceries, "impulse" buys are strategically placed for "impact".... They are placed along aisles where necessary but usually at the till.... the magazine you wouldn't normally buy, gum, trinkets that intrigue you long enough to make it into your pile of swag.... Stuff you bought for no reason and use only because you bought it... Sigmund Freud was a great psychologist - though he dealt more with sexuality... the same can be said of Masters and Johnson... These are the "visible" progenitors of using psychology in the modern world.... Before you reply... psychology can be used in a manner that will make anyone that sees "psychology at work" appear paranoid... Am I paranoid? You bet.... Am I paranoid without reason? Ford has sent me a jacket I don't wear, a watch I don't look at and toolbox plaques that remind me I have to do another course or fulfill some other requirement. Psychology is well and living all around you.... DRR is derived from the Latin "delictimous rectumious retentivous". Obscure in use, it was (in ancient times) a plea for warriors to bring their own vaseline to a fight where they were sure to get royally phuqued.... The DRR process is flawed.... period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Which is much better than being pissed ON..... well, for most of us.... Unless you're one of those who are into "Golden Showers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Jim Warman Which is much better than being pissed ON..... well, for most of us.... Unless you're one of those who are into "Golden Showers". Ford Diesel/Senior/Master Tech ....who works at a dealership that employs the most hideous looking female employees ....but loves hot women with big boobies ....and hates working on E-Series with 6.0L ....that is really into golden showers LOL I couldn't resist Back to the topic... I filled out a DRR a long time ago and never heard anything and I don't think the labor time changed. I lost faith in the system very quickly. We had a guy from SLTS visit the shop I was at a long time ago and he attended our shop meeting. This was around 1998 when we were doing many sub-frame nut and bolt recalls on Taurus/Sable and Continentals. For those of you that aren't familiar with this recall, we drilled 2 holes in the floor, replaced both rear sub-frame nuts and bolts for a mere .6hr. Back in 1992-1993 we had a similar recall on the same vehicle line. This recall was a little different. We would replace the 2 rear sub-frame bolts only for .6hr. If the nuts spun, then we would replace those too and I think we got paid 1.2-1.5 to replace both rear bolts with the nuts. basically the same recall but for half the time. We asked this gentleman(total fucking asshole)from SLTS why such a difference. Did the procedure get easier over the years? He didn't really have a straight answer. He claimed that with the use of air tools to remove the bolts the procedure became faster. 36 Minutes faster? I still remember one of the techs getting loud with him, "What did the guy use a fucking hand auger to drill the hole in the floor back in 92? " This was around the same time period that I filled out the DRR. I realised that it was smoke and mirrors. Don't ever forget that if they actually do review a labor operation, there is a possibility that it will get cut. They make us aware of this to make us think twice about filling out a DRR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 "What did the guy use a fucking hand auger to drill the hole in the floor back in 92? Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 When reading this topic I see that I am not the only one that feels like they are fighting a uphill battle trying to be a diesel tech. Or take that back a ford dealer tech working on warranty repairs. I can not remember ever finding a tsb that adds times to slts. while watching the trends of FOMOCO, they study how to pass the cost of these repairs to the customer or to fault the tech on a technicality of paper work. (which makes the dealer bare the burden of the cost of repair) When I started to work on cars and trucks I had the same passion as all these techs that take the time to post comments and discuss procedures do, and that is fix vehicle right the first time. We are still Americans that pride our selfs on the work we do, and we spend coutless hours to be the best in our industry. Our study never stops as technology changes and we adapt to it, yet our pay seems to stay flat or goes backwards because of ford waranty times,(ESP). If any has seen time changed to the positive for techs, from this drr process please enlighten me. some of us work on these vehicles because thats what we do,thats who we are, and ford takes advantage of that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Gheeeze. This is an old dead horse. Or maybe not. He heat seems to have been turned down yet it still pisses me off every week on one job or another. Veterans of the disastrous 6.0L diesel years are probably still bitter and there are others who have moved on. Evidenced here as several members are no longer Ford technicians. Maybe we need to form a union! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Do you think we could ever talk Jim into becoming a Union Spokesman for those of us who join? Now that would be friggin interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Come on, Dwayne... you know I love onions. Shit, they are a food group all by themselves... matter of fact, onions are... Oh. Wait..... Uh... I thought we were talking about.... Ummmmm, the "U" word, you say??? Everybody forget flatratetech already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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