'05 F-250 Difficult To Diagnose No-Start

[mchan68]

Well Gents, it has been a while since any 6.0L has occupied my bay that I haven't been able to fix a no-start issue on, up until this last Friday. This vehicle came in two weeks ago blowing plumes of smoke that I determined to be a turbo shaft seal failure, which I promptly replaced and sent on its merry way. The exact complaint is described as follows:

 

"Vehicle smoked badly, started to chug, choke, then died out. Attempted to restart. Engine only cranks, but fails to restart."

 

Here is what I have done so far:

 

Performed PC/ED pinpoint test from symptom chart #3. Fuel pump pressure @ secondary fuel filter housing reaches 50 psi at key-on. PIDs monitored are ICP volts/psi, IPR duty cycle volts = 0.24 volts at KOEO, climbs to 1200 psi during engine cranking, IPR duty cycle increases to just less than 50%. KOEO injector buzz self-test = PASS. FICM_L/FICM_M/FICM_V PIDs indicate 12.00/48.5/12.00 @ KOEO & FICM_L & V decrease to about 9.0, but FICM_M remains steady @ 48.5 during engine cranking. FICM SYNC and SYNC PIDs change from "NO" to "YES" during engine cranking. Batteries were weak, possibly due to repeated attempts to restart engine. Charged vehicle batteries up, prior to testing. Vehicle sputters during attempt to start engine. Already checked output to injectors with homemade "noid light" tester. Plugged in "test" FICM, all failing to achieve starting engine.

 

So, as you can see, EVERYTHING that is needed to achieve a running engine IS there. I should mention that the engine WILL start with brake clean, but won't continue to run on its own accord. I have already removed the secondary filter cap and cranked the engine over to see if compression gases are leaking from any of the banks, and that appears to check out good. Relative compression reveals green bars and 0% across the board. Fuel quality has been verified. When cranking the engine over, it sounds like a "CLICK-CLACK, CLICK-CLACK, CLICK-CLACK...." but fails to catch. The only thing I have determined conclusively so far, is that it's definitely starved for fuel by the sounds of things. Now the question is WHERE? If the injector buzz test passes, and the noid light lights up nice and bright when plugged in, in place of the injector, is there a way to isolate the faulty injector(s) before I actually go ahead to remove all eight? Hotline suggests removing the glow plugs and cranking the engine over to check for fuel mists from the glow plug holes. Anyone else have any ideas?

 

This is a 2005 with 104,00 kms. (about 62,000 miles).

[Tony302600]

I know this seems weird but, take the egr valve out and check it. I don't know why, but in the past ive had 2 05's that did the exact same thing and the egr valve was stuck open. If that proves out, imma say that its an injector.

[Keith Browning]

Fuel quality has been verified. When cranking the engine over, it sounds like a "CLICK-CLACK, CLICK-CLACK, CLICK-CLACK...." but fails to catch. The only thing I have determined conclusively so far, is that it's definitely starved for fuel by the sounds of things.

Your description of the sound definitely reminds me of an engine with no fuel pressure. Though I wouldn't rule it out, a stuck EGR valve would not provide that sound and the engine should catch even with the valve stuck fully open - but it will quickly die as the engine becomes starved for oxygen. No air would definitely not support combustion and therefore no "CLICK-CLACK" sound.

 

Can you verify fuel pressure at the heads or at least one? How did you verify fuel quality? Did you empty the fuel filter housing and fill it with fuel conditioner and try to fire it?

[Mekanik]

Take the belt off the crank and see if it starts. We have had a couple with A/C clutches that were frozen and wouldn't let the engine turn fast enough to start.

[Jim Warman]

You've gotten some good advice thus far... Was there any sign of dusting? Don't forget that relative compression is just that... "relative".I can't speak foryourregion but, out here in the land of red clay dust, 100,000click is more than enough to waste an engine.

 

Even with the batteries charged up, pay attention to the RPM PID. Had one just the other day that sounded like it spun good but still needed a boost.

 

Is the turbo impeller easy to spin by hand?

 

I've been stung before.... fuel looks good, passes the sniff test and is still crap.... known good fuel is THE way to go...

[mchan68]

I know this seems weird but, take the egr valve out and check it. I don't know why, but in the past ive had 2 05's that did the exact same thing and the egr valve was stuck open. If that proves out, imma say that its an injector.

Nope. I pulled the EGR valve out already. It was clean and closed. I even tried to fire it up, with the valve removed.

[mchan68]

Take the belt off the crank and see if it starts. We have had a couple with A/C clutches that were frozen and wouldn't let the engine turn fast enough to start.

I doubt engine cranking RPM is an issue here, because I had the the batteries charged up, with a booster connected and cranking as fast as 224 RPM.

[Mekanik]

Maybe thats a problem. That seems a little fast. Is'nt cranking speed usally around 150RPM?

low compression = fast cranking speed

[mchan68]

Your description of the sound definitely reminds me of an engine with no fuel pressure.

I have a the fuel pressure gauge connected all this time, and it pegs up to 55 psi almost instantly the moment the key is turned to the RUN position.

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

No air would definitely not support combustion and therefore no "CLICK-CLACK" sound.

My point exactly.

 

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

Can you verify fuel pressure at the heads or at least one?

Are you suggesting to connect the fuel pressure gauge at the end plugs on the heads?

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

How did you verify fuel quality? Did you empty the fuel filter housing and fill it with fuel conditioner and try to fire it?

Yes.

[mchan68]

You've gotten some good advice thus far... Was there any sign of dusting? Don't forget that relative compression is just that... "relative".I can't speak foryourregion but, out here in the land of red clay dust, 100,000click is more than enough to waste an engine.

 

Even with the batteries charged up, pay attention to the RPM PID. Had one just the other day that sounded like it spun good but still needed a boost.

 

Is the turbo impeller easy to spin by hand?

 

I've been stung before.... fuel looks good, passes the sniff test and is still crap.... known good fuel is THE way to go...

 

I just replaced the turbo on this truck two weeks ago. At that time, I already did a crankcase pressure test before replacing the turbo. Interestingly enough. I drove this truck out of the shop (while waiting for the turbo to arrive), and it seemed to have plenty of power, even without the turbo installed.

[mchan68]

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys. I guess my main question is, IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY OF HAVING BAD INJECTOR(S) THAT PASS THE INJECTOR BUZZ TEST? And if so, is there any way of determining this, without having to pull all eight to look for any physical damage, or anything obvious? Not that it matters, but this is the truck that came in as a no-start back in February of 2008 while I was in school, and our tranny tech and shop foreskin "unloaded the parts cannon" at. Heres the list of parts:

Causal Full Part Number Part Part

Flag PREF BASE SUFF Description CPSC Quantity

 

N FL 2016 * REINF FRT WHEEL BRAKE BACKING PL 030008 1

N CM 5055 * STFNR-FR S/M RR K/UP LH 030008 2

N 6C3Z 9T515 A KIT-TUBE TRBCH OIL RTN 030407 1

N 4C3Z 9P456 AF COOLER - EGR 030804 1

N YF 3249 * KIT-FRT AXLE SHFT U/ 030008 1

N CM 5126 * 030008 1

N 3C3Z 9433 AA GASKET SET-MANIFOLD 03XXXX 1

Y 5C4Z 9A543 B PUMP ASY-FUEL INJECT 030408 1

N 3C3Z 6584 BA GASKET VALVE ROCKER 030008 2

N YF 3264 * 03XXXX 1

N WA 11 SA NANANA 4

N CXO 10W30 4LSD NANANA 4

N CVC 7 A MOTORCRAFT BATTERY 030307 2

 

[Jim Warman]

I just replaced the turbo on this truck two weeks ago.

 

What did you see for crankcase pressure... Not trying to be a knob here, Mike... but is the impeller easy to turn today? How many clicks were put on the truck in between - sometimes some amazing things can happen in a short period of time.

[Mekanik]

Mike, maybe open the valve for the fuel tester while trying to start the engine. I know that with a 7.3l if the injectors are scored it will run better with the fuel drain open because there is less pressure in the inside of the injector allowing it to open and close properly. I have never tried it on a 6.0L, but what do you have to lose.

[Mikill]

It's hard to determine which injectors are sticking and not firing off. I have had two trucks that have had this happen. They would start after some cranking but run like crap and smoke heavily once it fired off but would soon die. If I suspect injectors sticking I usually have the IDS power balance ready. If the vehicle does start you can see which injectors are not firing before it dies again.

 

One of the trucks I ended up putting 5 injectors in before it would start and run properly. The truck had almost 200,000 miles on it at the time. Then it came back a month later and I ended up replacing the other three for the same reason.

[mchan68]

What did you see for crankcase pressure... Not trying to be a knob here, Mike... but is the impeller easy to turn today?

To be honest, I didn't really bother checking it with a gauge, by virtue of the fact that checking the book specs, it states that it should be no less than Less than 15 mm Hg (8 H2 O), which makes little sense to me, so I went and converted it online, which works out to about 0.3 psi if I understood correctly. The way I did it, was by running the engine WITHOUT the turbo installed, and at operating temperature, with the oil fill cap situated on the oil filler upside down. I figured if there was pressure enough to blow the cap off, then there would be a problem, which there wasn't. And yes, the impeller IS easy to turn TODAY.

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

How many clicks were put on the truck in between - sometimes some amazing things can happen in a short period of time.

 

The last time the vehicle was in, was at 104,622 kms. It came in on the hook Friday with 104,704 kms.

[mchan68]

One of the trucks I ended up putting 5 injectors in before it would start and run properly. The truck had almost 200,000 miles on it at the time. Then it came back a month later and I ended up replacing the other three for the same reason.

Status Report:

 

After rerunning the buzz test this morning, I have noticed that SIX of the EIGHT injectors DO NOT buzz. I have now plugged in the noid light tester into all eight connectors while cycling the key and running KOEO, and ALL produce good solid flashes.

 

 

Soooooo, I have now determined that SIX injectors are faulty, MECHANICALLY (due to the fact it PASSES the buzz test). Now here's the question, how do I narrow down which of the six are the faulty injectors, short of pulling all eight to look for physical damage, if any will even be evident? It seems far-fetched to have that many fail at once, so what would be the root cause? Again, I repeat, fuel pressure is dead on at 56 psi.

[Keith Browning]

At this point Mike, why would replace any less than all eight injectors? Obviously something, either in the fuel or the oil quality at some point got to these injectors - ALL of them.

[GregKneupper]

I would replace all 8 injectors also. These things are sludged for some reason. More than likely lack of oil changes killed them. I have seen a few of these and I cannot explain how one day these trucks start and the next they dont but I have seen it.

[mchan68]

At this point Mike, why would replace any less than all eight injectors? Obviously something, either in the fuel or the oil quality at some point got to these injectors - ALL of them.

You know what, Keith? I was thinking the exact same thing. The only problem with replacing all eight would be to explain this to FoMoCo. Tomorrow, when the injectors arrive, I may even end up pulling cylinder #2 and #6 injectors (the "good ones) just to have a looky. I would feel a lot more comfortable determining what caused them to fail in the first place though.

[Keith Browning]

The only problem with replacing all eight would be to explain this to FoMoCo. Tomorrow

Don't you Candadianians need to get prior approval before replacing injectors like us dumb American techs do?

 

 

"Candadianians" (let it go, I had a lot to drink today)

[Aaron]

NOPE!

 

Anything we can fix under $8800, we're good to roll.

[Jeff_]

Since when is there prior approval for injectors???

[Keith Browning]

Since when is there prior approval for injectors???

Oh, you must not be involved in the RTDA program. Don't worry, next month 6.0L and 6.4L fuel injectors are coming off RTDA and will be added to the Hot-Line prior approval program... you know, along with engines, HPOP, EGR coolers and all that. And no, I am not kidding. Try getting multiple injectors approved with good fuel pressure and no concerns found.

[mchan68]

Try getting multiple injectors approved with good fuel pressure and no concerns found.

Precisely why I'm reluctant to replace all eight. I don't care if it comes back needing #2 and #6 shortly after. They can pay me again to do the job, unless I find something obvious tomorrow.

[Bruce Amacker]

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys. I guess my main question is, IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY OF HAVING BAD INJECTOR(S) THAT PASS THE INJECTOR BUZZ TEST?

 

And if so, is there any way of determining this, without having to pull all eight to look for any physical damage, or anything obvious?

 

Absolutely! If the barrel and plunger are damaged from fuel contamination, the "click" test will pass with flying colors but the lower end of the injector (barrel and plunger/nozzle) will fail to deliver fuel properly. In addition to this, the nozzle can be worn where the correct amount of fuel is delivered, but not atomized properly due to deterioration in the nozzle itself. Another lower end failure is from the nozzle spring breaking, in which it will commonly overfuel. How do you diagnose these in the truck? Use Stanadyne (or PM-17a/equivalent lubricity enhancer) Performance Formula in a dramatically heavy percentage. I usually fill the secondary FF with it and see how the truck runs. If it is better, the problem is generally bad injectors or bad fuel. Once the injectors are out, you can also apply shop air or vacuum to the tips and make sure they hold pressure/vacuum. It sounds silly, but it works to identify a leaking nozzle.

 

Good Luck!