'05 6.0 F250 hard/no start cold/hot

Kevin · February 4, 2006

Just found this place and seems to be in the nick of time.

Been in the industry for over 19 years and just getting into diesels, more like thrown into them, something else to learn, I like learning and knew about being thrown into these before I started because the dealer sent me to the diesel performance class the week before I started at this dealer and I just started there January 9th this year.

Other than recalls, this is only the second diesel that I've worked on for a performance issue. Anyway, on to my concern.

I only had a little time to start on this truck the other day. It's an '05 with a 10/29/04 build and about 40K on the odo. I did see and read the TSB for pulling and inspecting the IPR for damage and possible replacement of it and the HPOP, but I'd like more opinions before diving in. From everything I've been reading, it does seem to be an HPOP concern.

It has a very long crank to start time, if it'll start at all. ICP will only build to about 250-350 psi, and takes awhile to build this, maybe 5-10 seconds. It may continue with this pressure as long as you crank it or it may all of a sudden take a jump to over 1000 psi, start and drop to 600-800 psi at idle. Once this thing starts, it runs very well, hot or cold. ICP will stay with desired across all ranges once started. IPR is commanded to 84% (off memory) when this is happening until it starts and backs down after it starts (I don't remember what it backs to, I think it was in the 30% range). If I remember correctly, it also had a P0299 in memory. I haven't looked into it yet at all because I am more interested in this starting concern first and it didn't seem to be a cause of the hard start concern, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not looking for any silver bullets, just a helping hand in the right direction. I am the only performance guy in the shop, gas or diesel, and the only one there with any diagnostic skill. I do very well on the gas stuff, but I need a helping hand on these diesels, please.

Keith Browning · February 5, 2006

Kevin, Welcome to the DTS!

From reading your post you sound like you have a really good understanding of what you are after. I would say you are on the right track and that you have a high pressure oil leak. The type of leak that acts up only when hot indicates a small leak that will likely be difficult to find by using the air leak test but I strongly recommend trying it. The service manual has the air leak test procedure in it if you get lost.

You might also want to read this thread: Cracked Branch Tubes

And also read this article: 6.0L ICP system leaks

Keep us posted with your findings or more questions.

Welcome to the world of diesels! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

gasgasman · February 5, 2006

Acts like an injector leaking oil.

As Ford Doctor said, do the air leak test.

You can listen for air leaks through the oil filler cap or the crankcase vent hose on the left valve cover.

Kevin · February 5, 2006

Thanks for the replies. I'll check the easy stuff first starting tommorrow and go from there. Any other ideas are always welcome.

Jim Warman · February 5, 2006

I'm always at a loss for some of these things... Do we do the TSB first or do we do manual diagnostics first? If I do the air test and it comes up TSB related, can I be sure I wont get charged back for the air test?

We've come across several with debris and/or holes in the IPR screen.... or the IPR screen stays in the pump....

We've come across several with the retainer ring blown out of an injector (the one that was supposed to have been fixed in production).

I find it easier to access the IPR if I undo the ground wire at the back of the intake and remove the stud... occasionally, I need to call the apprentice with the "girly-boy" hands, but usually I can get my old bones to bend in enough places.

Kevin · February 5, 2006

I'm always at a loss for some of these things... Do we do the TSB first or do we do manual diagnostics first? If I do the air test and it comes up TSB related, can I be sure I wont get charged back for the air test?

We've come across several with debris and/or holes in the IPR screen.... or the IPR screen stays in the pump....

We've come across several with the retainer ring blown out of an injector (the one that was supposed to have been fixed in production).

I find it easier to access the IPR if I undo the ground wire at the back of the intake and remove the stud... occasionally, I need to call the apprentice with the "girly-boy" hands, but usually I can get my old bones to bend in enough places.

I like that "girly-boy" hands thing. That's funny. We have a fairly new to the trade guy, about 4 years, in our shop. When I need something done I can't get my hands on, I tell him I need his "[censored] hands" for a minute.

Since I'm basically new to this, I'll probably start at that air test first and go from there. My reason for that is a learning process for myself. I don't mind spending some extra time (and losing a few bucks) on something now if it makes me better and more accurate down the road. A little help along the way helps, too. Now all I have to do is find all the missing tools. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

Kevin · February 24, 2006

I'm not at this dealer anymore, but I wanted to find out if the repair I recommended fixed this vehicle so I called today and talked to the tech that completed it.

I ended up having the HPOP pulled after doing an air test. The IPR seemed to work properly, but most of the air heard could be heard equally on both banks and a gurgling noise when the IPR was commanded full open. Once the HPOP was pulled, the high pressure tube asy was pulled from the pump. This asy looked worn (?, it's a non moving part). What appeared to be a nylon o-ring inside the pump was also trash. The pump, IPR and the tube asy were replaced and the vehicle reassembled. The vehicle now starts as designed, although, slightly overrepaired.

Jim Warman · February 25, 2006

Kevin... "over-repaired" is always a tough call.... In a warranty situation, we can always fall back on "confidence in the repair".... If I feel that a part or assembly is "iffy", I'll change it. I am not going to enjoy a repeat failure any more than I would enjoy an "ineffective repair" chargeback. Our primary goal is happy customers.

In a retail situation, we do need to have a little more discretion... good communications with the customer is a key, here. With the price of some of this stuff, we have the added stress of trying to avoid bankrupting our customer but, at the same time, avoiding having something we missed kill a new part. Again, we need to be sure that we have performed an effective repair (90% of what I work on are commercial vehicles... downtime can injure one of my customers much more than the cost of the repair).

While the 6.0 has been with us nearly 4 years, what we see on a daily basis can be "ground-breaking all the same.... it is still new technology but it is now new technology with a lot of miles on it. Even the old dogs are seeing things they never saw before as these engines find new and unique ways to screw up.

Add the "moving target" nature of what we are doing..... 04s with 03 engines... 05s with 04 engines.... recalls with multiple "what ifs", TSBs that seem to include "wrong" trucks and forget "right" trucks.... updated diagnostics... we change this EBP but forget that EBP....

Here in Canada, I'm told we wont have the go-ahead for 06E16 and 06E17 until March.... As far as 17 goes, I might change an EBP next week and disable it next month... go figure.

I think the biggest reason I'm into diesels is that I want to see what they do next....

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif