Keith Browning Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The automotive industry is in a great state of flux.... Now is the time for those that feel the need for change in the system to speak up. Jim put this worm in the water in a different topic... I feel the concept deserves to be explored. I'm all ears. You, gentelmen, are all members of a venue willing to put the intellegent voice of professionals out there. Anyone care to bite this worm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think the greater issue here in the states is healthcare. I read somewhere that 65% of all bankrupcy's are due to overwhelming healthcare bills or the cost of it. A major part of GM and Chrysler going bankrupt is them having stupid business practice's and having to pay all that healthcare to the UAW. This country would be a better place if we had a unified healthcare system. Anyone see Micheal Moore's "sicko?" That movie made me think about how shitty our government is letting the pharm, insurance, medical, companies line the pockets of the senators. Everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone do anything about it. Obama, sent a letter out to the senate majority leader stating that he wants a single payer healthcare bill made out before the end of the year, i think it wont happen because everyone making the decisions are on the payroll of satans helpers themselves. If they do make a bill, then it will be a shitty one. Greed run's this country, companies are looking to screw people out of every cent they can. I needed to say that and didn't know where to put it. Now for the automotive industry.... GM, Chrysler, Ford, IMHO, put out cars and pushed us to like them. Since the US now owns 60% of GM, i think this should be a chance to MAKE them put out cars we need. They have the technology to get awesome gas mileage, why not put it out there. Give us a battery car choice, an electric car choice. Didn't the US government take over US Steel back in the 80's/90's. I thought that didnt work out well....same thing gonna happen to GM? What do you guys think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I am an opinionated person, and my opinion is that the unions have absolutely STRANGLED the automakers over the last few decades. This is not a new thread, really, we've explored it before. My wife (a retired teacher) with a Master's degree, never made nearly what an assembly monkey makes for the Big Three. Her pension is good, but I'd bet a retired assembly worker makes 30% more than she does and they pay the family's health care, too. I have to pay my own HC once she retired. This, along with horrendously bad management decisions in Detroit, have dug them a huge pit to climb out of. Ford is obviously in the best shoes of the Big Three, but they certainly have made their share of bad decisions, also. It will be interesting to watch how this plays out. I did buy a bunch of Ford stock lately..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I am an opinionated person, and my opinion is that the unions have absolutely STRANGLED the automakers over the last few decades. This is not a new thread, really, we've explored it before. My wife (a retired teacher) with a Master's degree, never made nearly what an assembly monkey makes for the Big Three. Her pension is good, but I'd bet a retired assembly worker makes 30% more than she does and they pay the family's health care, too. I have to pay my own HC once she retired. This, along with horrendously bad management decisions in Detroit, have dug them a huge pit to climb out of. Ford is obviously in the best shoes of the Big Three, but they certainly have made their share of bad decisions, also. It will be interesting to watch how this plays out. I did buy a bunch of Ford stock lately..... I know A LOT of people that bought it at $1.50. Why do the automakers have to choose the UAW? Why can't they hire non-union workers? I know in chicago the hotels HAVE to hire union maintainence engineers/workers? This topic is a loaded topic. There are too many things that cause EVERYTHING to fail. From Reagan signing the "deregulate the banks, and let them do what they want" bill, to companies shipping jobs overseas to save on labor, to the skyrocketing healthcare costs, to greedy banks. We went from a exporting economy to a mainly importing economy. I've wanted to ask Jim, Dwayne and all the canadians here, do you like the socialist government? Do you like not having to pay for medicare? Republicans say your healthcare is shitty because the government pays for it? One thing I know to be a fact. Whenever a republican is president... his sole purpose is to fill the pockets of his friends and people who contributed to his campaign. So far in President Obama's 137 days, he's had to clean up all of Bush's f-up's. Mending all the relationship's he's fucked... the stupid policies, crazy uneeded spending. I'm happy at the job he's doing, and pissed that a good amount of people are still bitching about him. The only way Ford/GM/Chrysler will get back customers is by giving us cars we want. Ford is starting to do that. If they brought that fiesta over here with 65mpg, i know their stock would go WAAAYYY up and then Bruce can talk to us from his carribean beach house.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Now for the automotive industry.... GM, Chrysler, Ford, IMHO, put out cars and pushed us to like them. Since the US now owns 60% of GM, i think this should be a chance to MAKE them put out cars we need. They have the technology to get awesome gas mileage, why not put it out there. Give us a battery car choice, an electric car choice. I have a different view on that. I believe that for the most part "Detroit" puts out the cars and trucks Americans WANT to drive. Most of us would prefer to move ourselves around in a comfortable powerful machine. GOVERNMENT is forcing the price of our vehicles up by pushing safety, emissions and fuel economy standards to levels beyond what are affordable to many people and at a rate that is staggering and possibly beyond what is reasonably possible. An automobile can be made to be super efficient but to do so, it would need to be super light and small. Light vehicles can be achieved by making them small or by using light weight materials that are expensive and sometimes require a lot of research and development. Now you are talking big money for a little econo-coffin most Americans would not WANT to drive. Its a balancing act. You want the car to be more efficient, yet it also has to be safer. But if it's made safer, it might not be as efficient. At some point you simply cannot have it both ways. I think the time to explore alternative fuels and electric vehicles has long been delayed but is the cost of the needed technology prohibitive to making affordable vehicles that Americans WANT to drive? Is the government forcing manufacturers to meet stringent requirements before the technology is readily available and affordable? Food for thought. Don't get me wrong - I am all for it but I, like most people, am willing to pay only so much for it. Government intervention into our lives... all for the sake of power at the expense or YOUR individuality and freedom to choose under the guise of "it's the right thing to do," "for your own good" or "saving the planet." I can smell a Liberal from a 1000 yards. The planet does not need saving. WE need saving from OURSELVES. What Americans WANT... has been the driving force behind this great nation from the beginning. It is the force behind motivation, innovation and providing us with the best of things that can be offered. In all seriousness, the advances technology that will get us to where we want to be is progressing and it is a good thing. It does not however, need to be forced upon us for the wrong reasons. What Americans NEED is to find a balance between what we want and what is good for us and exercise our freedom to make wise choices. Perhaps what we need is a shift in the way society thinks and it starts with the "individual." More government is NOT what we need and that is unfortunately what we are now about to get. This is a good time to stretch your legs, take a pee, get a refill on your super-sized Slurpee and get another jumbo bucket of popcorn. Originally Posted By: Keith Browning gratuitously quoting himself it starts with the "individual." That was the point of this post and if think about this, it is possibly what Jim is talking about in a way. I made a lot of comments about government intervention - I would prefer we try keep this topic related to the automotive industry - comments about government absolutely dovetail into the discussion quite well. However, if you see yourself writing something that is politically polarizing please refrain. You simply cannot blame any one administration or political party for the mess we are in. This is about the industry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Keith, I 100% apologize, ive just been hearing sooooo much about healthcare on the am radio that it just sparked the bad side in me. I'll keep all my replies legit to what the topic is about. I do think Ford is putting out car's people want. Case in point....the Edge and fusion. I REALLY REALLY like those cars a lot. I know a lot of people that love the F450 also. Times are tough, it sucks out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 No need to apologize!!! I am just doing the Moderator thing and making sure we don't wander off topic too far before we get it started. Besides, I stepped in it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 May be way off on this but I don't think so. The big 3 have gotten so big that they aren't competitive with the Europeans and Asian vehicles being "built" in the USA. The "imports" have taken root here and are building vehicles in the USA with American workers to be sold here. On the other hand the big 3 are sending our jobs abroad and having other countries build them and send them back to us whether they are in pieces or assembled. The big 3 need to be more competitive in the Automotive industry, the Onions got so big and had so much say for too many years and the big 3 got Strangled by it. I believe in making a profit and growing but when you try to make it all on 1 or 2 vehicles thats just ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 So what are we gonna nickname the North American three now? The Big Kahuna and the two sponges? lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 So what are we gonna nickname the North American three now? The Big Kahuna and the two sponges? lol. Obama Motors! It makes me sick to see how the Jap carmakers have come over here and showed us how to build cars "right" when we are the birthplace of the automobile. I think the majority of their plants are non-union and they make a reasonable wage for the work they do. IIRC, Japs pay about $38/hr vs. UAW average of $70 something an hour (which is an inflated figure that includes retiree obligations). Most Americans drool at the thought of making $38/hr! Cleveland is a huge automotive town with a Ford casting plant, Ford engine plant, Chevy stamping plant, Chevy driveline plant, and Chrysler stamping plant, all within 20 minutes drive of my house. This excludes the Ford assembly plants that closed nearby in Avon and Lorain, and the huge GM assembly plant in Lordstown, both less than an hour's drive from my house. The local news channel recently showed the closed Avon Ford plant being used as a storage facility for thousands of unsold Hondas. What a bizarre sight that was! The thing that pisses me off the worst about the UAW is how many UAW workers I know that FUCKING BRAG about how little work they do! Quote#1 from the Chevy neighbor across the street: "I run out of newspapers to read at work all day." Quote#2 from NUMEROUS Ford workers at the Brook Park Engine Plant: "I work on a team of 4-8 guys. Many times I go to work and punch in, and then go home and sit by the phone (on the clock!). My teammates will call me if something comes up and I need to get in." I've seen their paystubs sitting in their cars when they come in the shop for repair. These guys are making over A HUNDRED GRAND A YEAR for this "work". They deserve to starve and die, and the US automotive industry WILL dwindle to nothing if the unions are allowed to continue in their present form. These guys actually SMIRK when they inadvertently talk about how much they make. It's like they hit the lottery! They cry like little babies when they lose their jobs because they don't have a true trade or marketable skill once they fall off the gravytrain. Even their layoff pay (which is 95% of their clock pay) is a fucking crime. The severance packages are also a joke to most of us. This has been a problem for decades that doesn't seem to end. I REFUSE to subsidize these lazy SOB's that refuse to work. Yes, I drive a Jap label car, made in Indiana by non-union labor. It's a Goddamn shame it had to happen. Between the unions and the US engineers/beancounters with their heads up their collective asses, I just can't bring myself to buy a car I don't have faith in. 25 years of running an independent repair shop showed me the weak points of the US automakers: intake gaskets, fuel pumps, power racks, head gaskets, trannies, etc. the list goes on and on. We have the ability to be the best vehicle on the planet for only pennies more per car, and they WON'T do it. I just don't understand. This is obviously a huge thorn in my ass and a huge pet peeve for me. I know I'm speaking to the Ford world here, and I ask you to forgive me for driving what I drive. I do have faith that the US automakers will come back, but I just don't know how they're going to break the backs of the unions to do it. The gov't won't help them break the unions as it is political suicide to do even think of this, much less do it. It has to be through bankruptcy or attrition somehow. Larry, you're in the heart of it all. Do you see these same problems in Detroit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yep, I see it everyday, Drive around some of the neighbor hoods around here. The good people that used to live here have either moved on to different states or been kicked out of their homes because of the B/S thats happening. Hell even the people next door to me (of Mexican Decent) walked out of their home and went back to Mexico, reason being they have a boom in workers needed down there. Gee I wonder why???? Bruce I'm sure that you have been to Marysville, Ohio before....Ever had the chance to tour the Honda plant there, if not try it sometime, you may be suprised to find that they employee all US workers and they are non-onion and quite happy making a decent living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 No apologies required in my opinion Bruce. You couldn't have said it any better. I know allot of you folks down south get upset at the idea of the Big Kahuna and the two sponges setting up shop outside of North America. I don't like the idea much either, but how else are they gonna get rid of the fuckin onions? Maybe once they do that, they will set up shop back home again. Like the old saying goes: It sometimes has to get worse before it gets better. The onions did it to themselves and my heart pumps purple piss for them. However, I don't think the CEO's of these companies who have mismanaged them for so long should be let off the hook either. The cock sucker that ran GM ( what's his fuckin name again)got a $28,000,000 severance. Fucker shoulda got a bullet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak So what are we gonna nickname the North American three now? The Big Kahuna and the two sponges? lol. Obama Motors! It makes me sick to see how the Jap carmakers have come over here and showed us how to build cars "right" when we are the birthplace of the automobile. I think the majority of their plants are non-union and they make a reasonable wage for the work they do. IIRC, Japs pay about $38/hr vs. UAW average of $70 something an hour (which is an inflated figure that includes retiree obligations). Most Americans drool at the thought of making $38/hr! Cleveland is a huge automotive town with a Ford casting plant, Ford engine plant, Chevy stamping plant, Chevy driveline plant, and Chrysler stamping plant, all within 20 minutes drive of my house. This excludes the Ford assembly plants that closed nearby in Avon and Lorain, and the huge GM assembly plant in Lordstown, both less than an hour's drive from my house. The local news channel recently showed the closed Avon Ford plant being used as a storage facility for thousands of unsold Hondas. What a bizarre sight that was! The thing that pisses me off the worst about the UAW is how many UAW workers I know that FUCKING BRAG about how little work they do! Quote#1 from the Chevy neighbor across the street: "I run out of newspapers to read at work all day." Quote#2 from NUMEROUS Ford workers at the Brook Park Engine Plant: "I work on a team of 4-8 guys. Many times I go to work and punch in, and then go home and sit by the phone (on the clock!). My teammates will call me if something comes up and I need to get in." I've seen their paystubs sitting in their cars when they come in the shop for repair. These guys are making over A HUNDRED GRAND A YEAR for this "work". They deserve to starve and die, and the US automotive industry WILL dwindle to nothing if the unions are allowed to continue in their present form. These guys actually SMIRK when they inadvertently talk about how much they make. It's like they hit the lottery! They cry like little babies when they lose their jobs because they don't have a true trade or marketable skill once they fall off the gravytrain. Even their layoff pay (which is 95% of their clock pay) is a fucking crime. The severance packages are also a joke to most of us. This has been a problem for decades that doesn't seem to end. I REFUSE to subsidize these lazy SOB's that refuse to work. Yes, I drive a Jap label car, made in Indiana by non-union labor. It's a Goddamn shame it had to happen. Between the unions and the US engineers/beancounters with their heads up their collective asses, I just can't bring myself to buy a car I don't have faith in. 25 years of running an independent repair shop showed me the weak points of the US automakers: intake gaskets, fuel pumps, power racks, head gaskets, trannies, etc. the list goes on and on. We have the ability to be the best vehicle on the planet for only pennies more per car, and they WON'T do it. I just don't understand. This is obviously a huge thorn in my ass and a huge pet peeve for me. I know I'm speaking to the Ford world here, and I ask you to forgive me for driving what I drive. I do have faith that the US automakers will come back, but I just don't know how they're going to break the backs of the unions to do it. The gov't won't help them break the unions as it is political suicide to do even think of this, much less do it. It has to be through bankruptcy or attrition somehow. Larry, you're in the heart of it all. Do you see these same problems in Detroit? Quoted for truth. Couldn't have said it any better. There was a maintenance electrician that worked at Talbotville Assembly that was at my shop over 45 minutes away (ONE WAY) while he was on the clock at the Ford plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Bruce, do you think that the UAW having a grasp on the big three, trickles down to cuts being made to quality? What are the contracts with the three...why can't they just say go f-yourselves, we cant stay afloat with this contract, we're changing directions and now staying union? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Bruce, do you think that the UAW having a grasp on the big three, trickles down to cuts being made to quality? Undoubtedly. They still have a bottom line to consider to be price competitive and cuts have to be made somewhere. If they're paying out too much to the UAW workers in wages and bennies, there's only so many places you can cut costs, and one is using substandard materials. This shows up as poor quality aluminum castings that corrode, gaskets that leak, weak trannies from costcutting inside, weak fuel pumps that fail prematurely, etc. I spoke with a manufacturer that supplies Chrysler with fuel pumps a while ago, their cost on a fuel pump was about $1.50. We changed so many US fuel pumps at the shop we had to stock them, and we used only ($300-500)OEM dealer pumps, not even Motorcraft or Delco aftermarket. I think in 25 years we changed about 3-5 Jap pumps, which is less than the amount of American fuel pumps we changed in an average month. What are the contracts with the three...why can't they just say go f-yourselves, we cant stay afloat with this contract, we're changing directions and now staying union? I don't know much about how the contracts are written, but contracts are contracts, and the fucking unions will wave them in the corp's face while the ship is sinking to make sure they get their "proper" pay. This is partially what blows my mind- the unions just don't "get it". Have you ever dealt with pure blooded union reps? It's unreal. They think their shit doesn't stink and their existence is the sole reason the company is in business. I've never in my life seen such antagonism towards reality. This whole union thing cost me a good friend years ago. He was union and I obviously was not, working at the same company just out of high school. I asked him one day why he (a Teamster truck driver) got paid twice what I did, when I could do his job, but he couldn't do mine. I was a wrench fixing construction machines at the time- 1977. That conversation eventually got so wedged between us that we never spoke again. Oh, and did I mention I got fired over a union dispute at that company? That's a another thread all by itself....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 So basically, the group that created weekends, 8 hour work day, workers rights...is now killing the big 3. Yay So what's the fix for this. So now that the governement took over GM, and they see that an astronomical of the costs go to union workers, can they, (being the government) alter the contracts to make them work ? You can't sue the government and win. ( I think ). Now when chrysler gets bought by FIAT, do they have to abide by the contracts made with the UAW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Most Automotive dealerships up here don't have unions and we all work eight hours day or more if we want to We are not pushed to do anything we don't want to. But as a benefit to make extra money, overtime is available. And last I checked it is the Labor law standard and up here we call the Labor Board that sets the rules and regulations for standard hours and work Weeks and so on. the Unions didn't do shit to set up my hours of work. In fact i have worked for a Union one time in my life and it was one of the most abused freaking unions I have ever seen. All of us grunts at the bottom of the totem pole had to work our asses off while the old lazy fuckers at the top of the totem pole fucked the dogs day in and day out. I still believe that unions had a good intention when they were first invented decades ago. But their day has come and gone. And allot of the reason for that is because they have become way to abused and create way to many politics. They need to quit fucking around and trying to think about how to stick it to management and just start worrying about doing an honest days work. And in fairness to employees, Management needs to do the same. This is where I believe the labor boards should be improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Tony, health care is hurtin' and we are well on our way to a two tier system... It didn't used to be like that - universal health care was universal health care. But the nick and scratch attitude of far too many people placed unreasonable loads on the system. This would be those that merely needed a bandaid or a cold compress or "take two aspirins" yet felt some overwhelming need to spend hopursin the emergency room. Health care still works, not as good as it used to and now we are forced to pay for extra coverage but a surgical procedure or chronic condition isn't going to rob most people of decent living conditions. One down side (and one of the things spurring a two tier system) is flat rate. Doctors are paid on a flat rate system - a consult is worth this, an injection worth that and a "procedure" worth the other. Now - it looks like these doctors are paid well for their efforts - perhaps not handsomely but I have never seen a doctor that lives from paycheck to paycheck. Still, many of our best doctors had fled (or are fleeing) to the US - where they are free to charge or overcharge as much as they feel they can. Free enterprise at work. Since we have this "brain drain" we import alot of medical staff... Today,it is rare to visit a hospital without meeting a doctor from South Africa. OK... so universal health care isn't real fair to doctors... But these guys have to remember that it is my tax money that has funded a good deal of their edification.... Being sick isn't real fair to us and having some charlatan cash in on my misery isn't a dish I care to be served. (FWIW, my wife has had Crohns disease for over 36 years... without universal health care, I have no idea where we would be... Even then,in the mid-90s, my retirement savings were wiped out. As an entrepreneur, I didn't qualify for many social programs and we slipped through the cracks in the system as I sold out my business and sold my house. Without universal health care, I doubt I would have a keyboard to type this on nor an internet connection over which to post it.) Just touching on how doctors work "flat rate" opens up other avenues of discussion, other ethical considerations and other reasons to rethink our own stances. I can think of more than one tech who would love to be rid of the flat rate system... but the idea of losing universal health care to deregulation of doctors would be unthinkable. No system is perfect.... but you can't have your cake and eat it too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 So basically, the group that created weekends, 8 hour work day, workers rights...is now killing the big 3. Yay So what's the fix for this. So now that the governement took over GM, and they see that an astronomical of the costs go to union workers, can they, (being the government) alter the contracts to make them work ? You can't sue the government and win. ( I think ). Now when chrysler gets bought by FIAT, do they have to abide by the contracts made with the UAW? Many years ago,Canada (specifically, the Canadian government) saw what was happening with the movement to unionize in the US. In an attempt to reduce union influence, the government enacted labour laws to cover most aspects of employer/employee relationships... including work hours, when and how overtime was due, holidays and, as time progressed, pregnancy,illness, I know I'll miss much. I can see where the government can force the unions to renegotiate into accepting modified terms.... "You will comply or we wont help at all" seems to be working. Before I am accused of throwing people under the bus, when my small business needed some help and understanding, they sent out a tax auditor (she brought her own bus to throw me under). Companies that are run in a shitty manner deserve to die... plain and simple. True for me - true for GM. FIAT is going to have to honor any and all current agreements with Chrysler... to unilaterally alter any agreements would be an agregious breach of trust. However, there isn't anything to say that any plant(s) could be permanently closed... but any termination agreements would take effect. And a new plant "owned" by a "subsidiary" may be able to open down the street with no requirement to rehire. Of course, I am sure that any smart union reps and/or business management team would have considered most avenues available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 One needs to research the history of trade unions to gain a full appreciation for their pros and their cons.... and let's not forget a little sidebar to visit a very colourful man... Jimmy Hoffa of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.. they never did find him (or his remains). Back during the Industrial Revolution, it became apparent the workers needed some kind of protection. Children were sold into labour, much like slaves. Workers became emboldened and, slowly, the labour climate began to improve... Henry Ford started up and,in 1914, he was already paying an unheard of $5 per day for an 8 hour a day, 5 day work week. Still, it wasn't until the 1930s when the UAW was founded under the wing of the American Federation of Labour. I don't think that it is any secret that Ford Motor Company reacted badly to initial attempts in the late 30s for the UAW to try to organize Fords employees. It didn't take long for unions to become self serving... union leaders could justify exhorbitant pay packages by bullying the manufacturers into exhorbitant wage agreements... Hey, if the managers can rape the company, why can't the workers? I mean, shit... all any of us ever wanted is better wages.... Some don't mind if they can't justify the better wages... The history of most trade unions is peppered with incidence and tactic that are less than salient and some border on outright criminal activity. And a lot of it makes for good reading.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 SMART UNION REPS? Isn't that like an Oxy Moron? Thieving maybe, but SMART? I think you have given way to much credit where absolutely no credit is due. I mean come on, they are arguing themselves out of existence. Even when their future is so bleak, they are arguing for way too much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I'll stick with "smart" and throw in a couple of dashes of sly and crafty... underhanded is a given... These guys might outsmart themselves... maybe their adversaries might outsmart them.... Union leaders are smart enough to have hundreds of thousands.... even millions.... of union members ready to do some real dumbfuck stuff for them.... Crazy - yes... stupid - no... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Here's a thought on a scenario that might/is going to happen. GM/Chrysler start restructuring and realize that the cost to build an automobile in the US is too expensive, because the UAW wont budge on any part of the contracts. So they make the plants outside the US to save on cost. Now all those jobs are lost. Now if we let GM/Chrysler fail... those same jobs would be lost. I see a lose/lose situation. Am I right or wrong? Like Bruce said... everything is made in china/mexico/japan etc etc etc. We import everything from other countries. Did you know that every single bearing is made in China. China bought all the US companies that made bearings (i.e. bearings for electric motors, etc etc etc) in the US and disassembled the plants to reassemble them in china? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Did you know the U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate in the world except for one country - Japan. Our current administration wants to change that and put us at the top. Yep. Change you can believe in. Combine that with Tony's theory on Unions and labor costs I can see how companies are no longer able to afford to stay in the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I see a lot of people focussing on auto assemblers... focussing on manufacturing positions... focussing on sundry other sub sections of the automotive industry.... !!! DUH !!! How many dealerships are closing? How many "techs" are being turned out into the wild? How many of these guys are willing to work for peanuts? How many are better than "me".... Let us, for one very brief instant, forget about all of those people that have nothing to do with the auto repair industry. Let us try to resist the urge to place "put tab A in slot B" on the same plane as "Use your God given common sense to figure out how the put tab A in slot B guy fucked up" guys like us.... We DON'T work for Ford OR GM OR Chrysler..... What happens to them WILL affect us... But, if you are waiting to see how that will be on the news, it will be far too late. You don't have a collective agreement with Ford. I don't, Keith don't ... hardly nobody don't... And everyone appears to be so focussed on assembly line workers that they are about to let their lives flash by them . Even as we speak, thousands of mechanics are about to start looking for your job.... And, for some part. they will accept what is being offered.... even if it is starvation wages. Wake up guys... the coffee is perkin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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