diesel diag sheets

[sixturbosix]

I was curious if most techs fill out there diesel diag sheets when they do warranty repairs and if not how do you claim your diagnostic times.

[Keith Browning]

I recommend that any young technician use them religiously to develop a diagnostic routine. For warranty purposes you are required to fill them out. Regardless of how I approach a diagnosis at this point in my career there will be one attached to the repair order, properly filled out and tests performed only to the point where a concern is found. TSB's and additional tests may be applied thereafter.

 

Remember, just because you filled out the diagnostic sheet you still need to document your test steps and results on your repair order including pinpoint test numbers, connector numbers and circuit numbers/colors where applicable.

 

Some zone reps are more lenient than others, some will deny questionable repairs or bounced claims, others will warn you to start using them. If the warranty Nazi's are reviewing your claims it is in your best interest to use, fill out and attach your Diesel Diagnostic Sheets. God help you if you don't and you are audited!

[sixturbosix]

I always fill them out on all warranty claims and attach them to the RO.My warranty clerk insists on them heavily and this is why I was wondering if it was a must.Thanks

[Jeff_]

Uh oh, I have never filled one out. But I do type good stories.

[Aaron]

I type good stories, and have been filling the sheets out as of late.

[G. Bedford]

I do them when I am not following a TSB procedure. I will say, as a flatrater, I find them terribly redundant and a waste of time when the same thing is already on the RO.

[Aaron]

I do them when I am not following a TSB procedure.

 

Ain't that the truth!

[Keith Browning]

I do them when I am not following a TSB procedure. I will say, as a flatrater, I find them terribly redundant and a waste of time when the same thing is already on the RO.

*Technically* you are always following a diagnostic routine, hopefully one that is the diagnostic sheet or very close to it. You still need to perform your pre-checks and inspections, run a self test and at least retrieve continuous DTC's before proceeding further with the diagnostics or have identified an applicable TSB to follow. I still fill out the sheets far as it takes me to discern what is wrong and what I will need to do... even when a repair requires me to use a TSB.

 

I agree about the redundancy of all this and for us flat-rate technicians it is a productivity killer. So is the prior-approval process and the forms and telephone calls that go with it (RTDA) but at least with those there is a prior-approval operation that gives you 0.3 hours.

[Jim Warman]

Be it a performance issue or a hard/no start issue, the diag sheets are no brainers.... and each step has pay assigned to it... What does it take to print off the sheet (we ARE addressing the basics, right?) and fill it out..... at least as far as the first sign of trouble.

 

Unlike Kieth, I don't feel that there is an issue with redundancy... Yes, we have more than our fair share of pattern failures... to the point that techs are getting upset about being called to task about some decisions. I have seen, far too many times, where neglecting the very basics has cost dearly in the end.

 

Yes, I'm the guy that says "don't perform unnecessary tests". But I'm also the guy that says "do perform the ones you need to....".

 

Ummm.... if we say "I checked fuel pressure" - we did it the way we are told to, right?

[Bruce Amacker]

This thread brings up a related topic: errors on the diag sheets. If you're doing warranty work, by all means fill out the diag sheet properly according to FMC and attach it to the RO. If you're trying to get one to start or run correctly, beware there are errors on the diag sheets that will mislead you. Let's cover them on a Hard Start/No Start sheet like I do in an aftermarket class. Remember most of the guys I teach do not have to play the warranty game, they just have to get the truck fixed. Therefore, the diagnostic steps taken may be a bit different than the warranty game.

 

 

Here's the sheet/slide I use in class, I think it’s an early 2004 sheet:

 

Errors or alterations in the process:

 

1. Step 6 is fuel inlet restriction. I instruct the students to only check this if FP is low, as it’s not a quick test if you don’t have the required adapter.

 

2. Step 10, data list shows PCM voltage at 8.0v minimum. This is too low for a cranking engine and if you see 8.0 something is wrong- like dead batteries or poor connections. I have them change this to 10.5v minimum. Most 6.0 PSDs will crank in the 10.5-11v area if batteries and starter are good.

 

Cranking RPM shows a minimum of 100RPM cranking on the diag sheet. On a warm August day in Miami you will have a tough time getting a PSD started at 100RPM. On a cold day in the northern states, you don't have a snowball's chance in Hell. A 6.0 cranks at 215 warm and I set a minimum of 175RPM cold. Where the PCED people get 100RPM I'll never know. Canadians may have more input on this as I'm sure they see more brutal temps than I ever will. E-vans might crank a bit slower due to battery location.

 

ICPV shows .8v minimum cranking. During the HP oil portion of the class I talk about the importance of looking at ICPV and not ICP pressure in scan data due to the PCM substituting values. I agree with the .8v cranking, but they forget to tell you the importance of looking at the KOEO ICPV, which must be within .17-.24v. I've seen plenty of biased ICPs that read too high with no DTCs, causing a no start because the PCM sees the high ICP and lowers IPR command to the point no HP oil builds and the truck won't start. The PCM won’t set a DTC in this situation because it is within normal specs, just not at the right time.

 

Step 11, glow plug test. I instruct the students to cross this entire block out and rely on two things- DTCs and amperage check. I'll talk about the 7.3 in another post, but on a 6.0 the glow plug module is really good at ratting on bad glow plugs, so in most situations you can trust the codes (on a 6.0). If you want to do a physical test on the glow plugs, forget the ridiculous resistance test they have in the PCED and do an amperage test. Go to the right side battery and find the four fusible links heading towards the alternator and glow plug module. There will be two for the GPM and two for the alt, separate them out. Put your amp clamp ($49 list at Sears) on the GPM fusible link wires and have your buddy turn on the key. The initial amp draw will be in the 170-180 amp range and quickly lowering down to 120 amps after 15 seconds. A reading in this area will confirm correct operation of the GP system. Forget resistance, amperage is the key here. The laws of physics dictate that if the amp draw is correct, the glow plugs are working properly. Why the PCED people don't get on this bandwagon baffles me, as the amperage test is much quicker and more accurate than their test.

 

 

(note in this photo the demo truck is equipped with a belt driven PTO, relocating the GPM and other items into odd places)

 

 

A blatant omission in the Hard Start/No Start sheet is not looking at the EGR voltage. If the EGR is stuck open it will flow too much exhaust into the intake and upset combustion, causing a hard start or no start. Look at the EGRVP for a semi-reliable report on whether the EGR is open or closed. If it’s near or under 1.0v, I’m happy. Many are in the .8-.9v range closed.

 

 

 

Performance Diagnostic Sheet

 

 

There are much fewer issues with this sheet than the Hard Start sheet.

 

1. The most common error technicians make? Failure to properly check fuel pressure under load!

 

2. Test 12B, IPR command. I agree with 30% max at a hot idle, but warn students that you can easily have a HP leak that causes a hard start hot, but can still have a low IPR command (low 20’s%) at a hot idle. I was actually quite surprised when I first saw this.

 

The most important thing you need when fixing trucks?

 

Good Luck!

 

[sixturbosix]

I talked to our warranty clerk today and he advised me that he has a friend that works for a company that contracts out to help dealerships with submitting Ford warranty claims.They had told him it was a must if you get audited and helps tremendously when fighting a claim denial.

[ablokzyl]

We just went through an audit.....they charged back a shit ton of ROs because there were no diag sheets atattched. I will never make that mistake again....

[Alex Bruene]

We HAVE to do them. If we hand in a warranty repair order without one, it will be handed right back.

[Keith Browning]

These diagnostic sheets are required for all diesel repairs. Period. Ford has been laxed on this for some time but if push comes to shove you will lose a dispute if the forms are not filled out and included with the paperwork.

[Mikill]

We are required to not only included the diag sheets but any tsb that is used must also be included with the test results written on it. Hotline requests, prior approval and anything related to the RO must be attached as well.

 

Service manager said paper is cheap so print it out no matter how long it is.

[joshbuys]

Same here, Manager says if we can't take the time to fill them out, He can't take the time to pay us! Most of my RO's are usually a book - some 30 plus pages!

 

Documentation is all that counts, one of our tech's had an odd problem with an 01 explorer with communication issues - FSE came several times, took close to a year of changing this and changing that and letting the customer drive in between. In the end a 02 explorer pcm fixed the problem - over 100 hours clocked on the RO and only requesting 20 hours from Ford - they rejected the claim too many times to count, but my SM was diligent and they finally asked for supporting documentation - little did they know their fax would soon be printing the 100 plus pages of supporting documentation. Paid the following day!

 

Without documentation of everything, You CANNOT prove that you did ANYTHING!!!!

[gasgasman]

How come gas engine repairs do not require diag sheets?

[mchan68]

How come gas engine repairs do not require diag sheets?

That's a good question.

[Keith Browning]

Ohhhh! NOW we are sturring up some shit!

[Adam_Dodson]

because Ford wont go broke off gas engine repairs if they didnt do everything possible to kick back warranty claims on diesels or draw out the process as long as possible they'd be broke in a matter of weeks!

[Fordracer]

We've had to fill out diag sheets on diesels ever since they came out in 1983, before they were a piece of junk.

[ChristopherH]

We just went through a warranty audit and they charged back about 40k worth of unclaimable repairs. They took all of our ROs for the last six months and said we could choose to have all of them reviewed or to break it into 10 groups and then pick one group to be checked--then the unclaimable repairs found would be times 10. There were only about 20 ROs that the auditor charged back money on and after review of them, I take issue with about 90% of his reasoning--we even got him to reverse his decision on a few of them. We have always used diesel diag sheets and documented EVERYTHING! He told us however that we should only do the tests on the diag sheets when directed to by a pin point test! (One of the things I disagree with him on)

 

Using his thinking, lets look at a 2006 6.0 with a misfire and a cylinder contribution code. Look up pinpoint test P in the PCED and follow it out until injector replacement is directed. There are many diagnostic operations directed in that PPT that on MOST 6.0 misfires I do not claim. I rarely have claimed combustion gas in the fuel rail test (at least if its only one cylinder missing), fuel aeration test, oil aeration test, or crankcase pressure test. I know there are trucks where these tests are required, and I use them when appropriate, but I don't use them on every 6.0 that has a misfire! I pointed this fact out and that our warranty average would go up instead of down if we follow the auditors advice and was told that this is where we should use our knowledge and experience to decide what was appropriate!

 

Sounds a litte contradictory to the "by the book and the warranty policy manual, lock step, no deviation, or be subject to charge back" mantra that they have been preaching lately. How can we all be way over the national average on these diesel repairs? It sounds to me like we all are having the same failures and that we are all fixing them the same way! I would like to see the raw data that they are basing these numbers on BEFORE they put it through the magical formula that makes all dealers nationwide comparable to each other! If you have ever taken statistics, you know that numbers can be manipulated to show whatever result you desire. I don't know if thats the case here, but I am definitely suspicious when we are doing everything we can to repair these trucks right and to save warranty as much money on parts and labor as we can, but still we are 195% above the national average???