Fordtechnician Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I am supposed to quote a customer pay 2004 Excursion. He talked about just exchanging the factory bolts for the studs, one at a time. Can it be done? Is it advisable? Should the body be lifted? It is already chipped, so are the gaskets blown as well as the oe blts stretched? How many hrs do you quote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 It's not advisable, and my understanding is that anytime one of the bolts is de-torqued the head gasket must be replaced. I would first road test it and monitor EGT/EOT to determine if it needs any cooler(s) as well, If it has higher mileage it is possible that the oil cooler is at least partially restricted. Then I would lift the body, pull the heads, clean them, check them for flatness, reinstall with new gaskets and studs, replace any needed coolers, clean the vgt components, pressure wash radiator fins, and reassemble. Probably in the low to mid 30's for time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 ^^^ What he said. You'd be marrying a time bomb if you did it the way the customer wants to. Not to mention I'd betcha it'll be ignint to get that lower rear driver's head stud in place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 If even do-able? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Don't touch it unless replacing head gaskets - then lift cab! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordtechnician Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 I have done F series body lifts and have the instructions printed. I got those from flatratetech.com years ago. Where can I find Excursion instructions? I can't even find F series anymore on line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 If even do-able? I don't think it is. Doesn't the WSM tell you to put the BOLT in the head in that location before you put the head on? I haven't looked in ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: cbriggs If even do-able? I don't think it is. Doesn't the WSM tell you to put the BOLT in the head in that location before you put the head on? I haven't looked in ages. Yes...You will NEVER get that bolt out/in with the head sitting in place - I use a piece of rubber hose to hold the bolt up from interferring when I'm installing the head (I do heads in cab). But I don't think I would try doing ARP studs in cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoWilimek Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I have done F series body lifts and have the instructions printed. I got those from flatratetech.com years ago. Where can I find Excursion instructions? I can't even find F series anymore on line.Basically the same as the F series, but with a few additions. I got the instructions from flateratetech also, but are now so covered in my own notes that I would be embarrassed to copy them. Here are the extras as I see them printed. 1.Disconnect the fuel filler pipe from the body, 1-10mm nut and 3-7mm nuts and lay aside loosely(have assistant watching the fill pipe while raising the body off so as not to catch on lower fender). 2. Disconnect both licence plate bulbs at rear. 3. There are 10 body mounts, that require an 18mm socket and air ratchet to remove. They are in pairs up and down the body. The first pair are just inside the rear hatch. The second are about 2 feet forward of that. The third are just behind the front seats. The fourth and fifth are the same as on the F-series. 4. Disconnect the 2 heater hoses going to the rear(if equipped). Otherwise, all instructions for F-series apply. Note:1. These are as printed from flateratetech.com for pre-2005 models. 2. I have never done an Excursion cab lift, so have not had a chance to test the instructions as printed, or improve any mis-information as printed. 3. I scanned the entire list of instructions as printed off the website and hope I didn't inadvertantly miss any pertaining to the Excursion. Good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordtechnician Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 The customer insists he has read somewhere this can be done without replaceing head gaskets. He says he has read this on other sites, don't know where. Its his $$$$ not mine. IF I do the job, I am going to road test it first to determine the oil cooler condition. I will replace it if necessary. I am going to do a body lift (save my back). I'll drain the coolant and do one bolt at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I don't like doing stuff twice. A head set ain't that expensive, when you look at the cost of doing the job again. It's my opinion that any time you loosen a head bolt on a cylinder head with a MLS head gasket you should replace the gasket. But then again, there's an article in diesel power magazine that tells you to remove and wipe off the head gasket before re-installation. *shrug* I dunno. I would refuse to do the job without gaskets, personally. Already in to the point of lifting the body... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Ditto on that. Do yourself a favor and pass on this job. If you cannot convince the customer to replace the gaskets, then you will be the bad guy when it comes back, trust me on that. There is an easy way to convince this guy to buy a gasket set. It's a simple matter of phsycoligy. The guy obviously has money, cause he owns an Excursion and he has bought the studs, which ain't cheap. So he doesn't want to buy a gasket set because he is a cheap bastad or he doesn't want to waste the money. Unfortunately he has fallen victim to the internet and bum info. This is a problem we face with all the information at anyones finger tips, be it good or in this case bad. Anyway, you must compare this job to something that will really hit home with this guy. Say he is a contractor or lawyer or the best is if he or someone he knows has had surgery. Then you can compare the jobs and say if you were having this done and the doctors did not use blah blah blah, then you would have to be opened up again, or whatever. I found this works everytime! And the rare case it doesn't, I send them packing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Ditto on that. Do yourself a favor and pass on this job. +1 Pass on this one. You'll be marrying a bastard if you do it. Merry Christmas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Dodson Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I don't like doing stuff twice. A head set ain't that expensive, when you look at the cost of doing the job again. It's my opinion that any time you loosen a head bolt on a cylinder head with a MLS head gasket you should replace the gasket. But then again, there's an article in diesel power magazine that tells you to remove and wipe off the head gasket before re-installation. *shrug* I dunno. I would refuse to do the job without gaskets, personally. Already in to the point of lifting the body... i saw that article too...but did you see a few pics later the new headgasket sitting on the engine ready for assembly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 A long time ago...03 or 04ish, we had a 6.0 come in with some kind of a problem that required removal of a rocker arm pedestal... (hows that for a memory??)... This was back before I was demoted to foreman... After consulting with hotline, we all came to the conclusion that we would try just replacing the one bolt... IIRC, we still had pilot injection and head gaskets weren't yet a real issue... We left the engine in cold soak overnight and a new set of head bolts was brought in. the one bolt was detorqued and replaced with a minimum of time spent in detorque. Now... I'm not recommending this method one bit... it bothered me then and it would bother me now... But it is interesting to note that I do not recall us ever having to do head gaskets on this truck. I think the general concensus between us and hotline was that if the head gasket failed subsequent to this repair... we had to replace the head gasket anyway... It was a cheap experiment and Ford made out like jack the bear. Now... in Fordtechnicians case (Gad... it would be nice to put a 'real' name to that) I'd bet that the main reason for going to studs is because the problems have already surfaced.. Personally, I would throw a tantrum... screaming that I'm not a fucking hooker and I wont do "anything" for a buck. As trained professionals with reputations to protect, we should be deciding how a repair strategy will progress... not the customer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 When I was up at the mine there was a mishap by another tech during a head gasket replacement on a 6.0 that ended in a busted rocker arm and bent pushrod. He pulled the bolt out to replace the rocker pedestal, not allowing for a cold soak, and re-used the bolt. I left not long after that, so I don't know if there were any ill effects. Again, I personally (and it seems as I'm not alone, looks like everyone feels the same way) think that if you loosen a bolt where a multi-layered steel gasket is being used the gasket should be replaced. Just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlchv70 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 My opinion is that it would probably be okay. The gasket has less tension on it during a combustion event than it would by loosening 1 bolt at a time. However, I would just quote him 2 prices. One for studs only and one with studs and gaskets. Show him that it won't be much more to go ahead and replace the gaskets and you have better peace of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbudge Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Whether or not it may be ok is not the issue. The issue is that as soon as you touch this thing you will be married to it until the end of time. Isn't there enough to go wrong with a 6.0 without throwing fuel on the fire? And as has been mentioned, if he wants studs now, the damage has already been done. I like to sleep at night, and shortcutting a job to save someone else a buck is a leading cause of insomnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I've removed head-bolts to replace rockers before with no issues. I always used a new head-bolt. These were vehicles we see on a regular basis. None have had a head-gasket failure. I would not think twice about replacing the bolts one at a time, as long as the engine is cold and the coolant drained via the block plugs, I'd try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 ive done a few without pulling the heads, just put the studs in and never came back with any issues. These were decently modded trucks too. You will be ok. These customers didn't have problems though, they wanted it done to prevent problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I was replacing the head bolts, rocker arms/pedestals, and push tubes one at a time as part of a recall on close to 50 vehicles that I see on a regular basis. Never had a head gasket failure. I would let them sit overnight, drain the block plugs on both sides. I was nervous at first, thought for sure I would have failed head gaskets but never had one come back. Don't know why ford doesn't do any of these recalls?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordtechnician Posted January 18, 2010 Author Share Posted January 18, 2010 How do You go about torquing them since you take one out at a time? I'm going to be doing this job in an Excursion....studs only. Will be lifting the cab to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidoo700 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I definitely would replace the gaskets if you are going to go through the trouble. And have the heads surfaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Talk about grave digging.....Last post was almost 2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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