My First Catastrophic 6.4L Failure

[mchan68]

The start of my week went from so so, to absolutely HORRIBLE at about 3:30pm today. I'm a little busy right now, changing phasers and solenoid valve bodies on a couple 5.4L 3V engines and in rolls an '08 F-550 on rad #3, and the complaint goes, "blowing white smoke out the tailpipe, barely running and a loud knocking sound". I waltz outside the front of our service drive to be greeted by a blinding plume of white in the air, along with a puddle of engine oil rivaling in enormity with the Exxon Valdez. YEAH!!!!!!

 

Okay sorry, rant off now.

[mchan68]

Well, I was able to take a quick glimpse of the vehicle outside today on what little free time I had. I was thinking a failed horizontal EGR cooler hydrolock. Closer inspection revealed a hole in the engine block on the passenger side of the engine. I thought that cylinders #2 and #8 were the favourite two to let loose on these animals.

 

Vehicle is a loader F-550 with PTO, 4x4 and 6 speed manual. Any tips on cab removal? Any links with pictures that will be easier to use as a quick reference than the WSM? I'm already well aware of the infamous cab bolts that WON'T come.

 

ANY help or tips will be greatly appreciated on this monumental hooping I'm going to be getting, given this will be my first cab-off and major repair on a 6.4L.

[Adam_Dodson]

prey you get a complete...ask Dwayne

[mchan68]

prey you get a complete...ask Dwayne

That's what the SM and I are shooting for. I hear the head bolt torque for these bastards are TIGHT.

[DwayneGorniak]

They are friggin tight. But way way easier with Jim's new torque multiplier. I just wish I would've been smart enough to pop out the filter minder and stick the Brake Clean nozzle into that fucker while it was runnin. It would have been so much easier on my ass.

[mchan68]

I just wish I would've been smart enough to pop out the filter minder and stick the Brake Clean nozzle into that fucker while it was runnin.

Funny you should say that. I was just toying with the idea of doing just that. At $20G for a 6007 drop-in assembly, something gives me this awful feeling that I'm going to be playing telephone tag with Ford on this one.

[DwayneGorniak]

Have you ripped the engine apart yet? If you have, pull the exhaust valves out on the damaged cyl's and look at the valves and seats. I'm pretty sure you will find pitting and burning. Do everything humanly fucking possible to make that fucker a complete drop in.

[GregH]

You know, these engines really aren't that much more difficult than the 6.0...

 

Sure, the head bolt torque is high, but with the proper tools it is doable. A little antiseize under the bolt head will smooth things out.

 

As for the rest of it, it's just nuts and bolts. Do you have the big engine stand and the adapters?

 

Detachment from the outcome was some advise given to me from a person named Tyler Durden. He had a lot of other advise, too, but the bit that shows the most consistant positive result is to remove your emotion from the job at hand - detatch yourself.

 

If the rules lead you to a drop-in - ok. If the rules lead you to building the enigine, that's ok too. If you don't have the right tools, get them. Just do the damn job... At 5:30, you're going home anyway, and your car starts and runs just fine, right?

[Keith Browning]

Good advice Greg, however, most technicians get rattled because a job like this almost always results in negative productivity. When something affects our bottom line it becomes DEEPLY emotional. Also, this engine is more than just nuts and bolts, there are a lot of details that need attention such as assembly procedures and torquing patterns. It makes the best of us slow way down... it makes the best of us consider the consequences of our workmanship is allowed to slip.

[eastendpowerstroke]

I was fortunate enough to be forced into doing a short block and one head on my only 6.4L failure.

Truth be told it SUCKED..Theres so many little bolts and gaskets that must be replaced and torqued it can be overwhelming.

With that said, I took lots of pic's with my digital camera to help out with some of the harness and hose routing, and when it was all done I even made about 3 hrs.

[Jeff Clyde]

Don't forget to look at your DPF/OC. Just finished replacing a set on an '08 that had the engine replaced at another dealer 400 kms ago after catastrophic failure. Both pieces were completely hollow; burned completely out. As Hotline said, it looks like the other dealer forgot that part of the repair, no kidding !

[Mikill]

Shortblocking a 6.4 is really not that bad after a few of them. I got it down to about two and half days. That's with cleaning and everything that goes with it. I'm by no means saying I like doing them or I'm a great tech but I just get my mind in the right frame and just do it.

 

By the way the last 6.4 that came in the shop with a hole in the block also destroyed the upper and lower oil pan so they ended up putting a complete assembly in the truck.

[Alex Bruene]

I've done 4 sets of heads and 2 complete engines. I don't mind doing either. The head bolts are not that bad. I simply use a 3/4" drive ratchet with a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 15mm socket... They're tight, but quite simple to do without fenders in the way.

 

As for detaching yourself from the outcome... I am quite blessed to work for a company that understands warranty times are difficult, at best... And will cover any time lost on major diesel engine warranty repairs. So, it makes detaching yourself from the outcome and focusing on the job at hand much easier.

[DwayneGorniak]

I've done 4 sets of heads and 2 complete engines. I don't mind doing either. The head bolts are not that bad. I simply use a 3/4" drive ratchet with a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 15mm socket... They're tight, but quite simple to do without fenders in the way.

 

As for detaching yourself from the outcome... I am quite blessed to work for a company that understands warranty times are difficult, at best... And will cover any time lost on major diesel engine warranty repairs. So, it makes detaching yourself from the outcome and focusing on the job at hand much easier.

 

You definitely can't complain about that when your dealership treats you like that Alex. That's awesome. I agree with Keith though. This engine is not just nuts and bolts. If it makes any of you guys feel any better, I am on my third 6.4L engine in a row with no breaks in between. I am fucking tired! They are a shit load of work. The worst part about this one that I am working on is that it is over fueling the crankcase and I cannot duplicate the leak in the shop. I did a short block on it over a weak ago for a dead miss. I drained 26 liters from the crankcase and it was low on compression in cyl #2. the fuel trims on cyl's 2 and 4 were at about 12% and 14%. Had been involved with Hotline. Could not get the fuel injectors to leak with the valve covers off and dye in the system and cranked up at 15,000psi FRP. It had shortened up the rod on cyl #2 and was blowing black smoke right out the exhaust. Replaced short block, DPF, DOC, two inj's cleaned CAC and replaced injection pump. It made it 350km's.

 

 

Fuck! Came back on the hook as a no start. 30 liters in the crankcase, DPF is melted, the 1-3 sensor behind the DPF had the temperature probe melted right off it. Low in compression on cyl#2 again. Short term fuel trims are great. Went through the high pressure diag again with dye and all that crap. I cannot get these fucking injectors or injection pump to leak. This time it also melted the glow plug in cyl #2, burnt the exhaust valves and seats, scored cyl #2, deeply scratched cyl #7. I am in the middle of prior approval it. Actually talked to Hotline as they requested for me to phone them on this one. They have had reports of this happening many times. If this fucker goes with a short block, I will have to do more diag to try and find the leak on the injection system, so I had to include those comments into my estimate for short block. Fuck, I'm praying that I get a complete.

 

So with that being said, it's a little hard to detach yourself from these fuckers at times. Give me an EGR valve or a straight forward repair which seems to be very rare on these pieces of shit and I can detach myself from them quite easily. But take it up the ass on flat rate and you tend to get a little postal! Fuck, I need another drink just thinking about this fucker!

[cbriggs]

Quote:

Give me an EGR valve or a straight forward repair which seems to be very rare on these pieces of shit

Thats for sure, not alot of straight forward common failures like the 6.0l.

[Mikill]

Quote:

Give me an EGR valve or a straight forward repair which seems to be very rare on these pieces of shit

 

 

 

Thats for sure, not alot of straight forward common failures like the 6.0l.

Shortblock repairs are common failures either from overfueling injectors or lifters coming apart. Then you have that EGT 13 sensor that likes to go out. High Pressure pump failures are becoming a common concern. Radiators are being done by the thousands. Not as easy as the 6.0 but they are common and straight forward.

[cbriggs]

Oh yeah, rads slipped my mind. huh. Too much 6.0 lately.

[mchan68]

 

As things now stand, Ford will only authorize a SHORT BLOCK for this mess. If you're in for a good laugh, have a good read of the hotline contact for this mess.

 

Hotline Assistance Request

 

 

 

VIN: 1FDAF57R28EA77015

 

Vehicle: 2008 F-SERIES

 

RO Number: 102700

 

Contact ID: 103457244

 

Request Date: 11-10-2009

 

Technician: michael chan

 

 

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Request Form Details:

 

 

 

Description of vehicle concern:

 

Customer complains of massive coolant loss (approximately 1 gallon per day) the last two days. Heavy white smoke emitted from tailpipe just beginning yesterday. Before arriving at dealership, customer heard a loud knocking sound from engine and then noticed massive engine oil leak under vehicle shortly after.

 

 

 

Diagnostics performed:

 

Engine compartment appears completely soaked with engine coolant. Disconnected EBP tube and coolant poured out of tube fitting. Suspect horizontal EGR cooler failure causing engine hydrolock. Closer examination reveals a hole in the right side of engine block.

 

Parts replaced:

 

NONE.

 

 

 

Question: Did you isolate the source of the noise?

 

Answer: no

 

 

 

Question: What is ICP pressure and voltage?

 

Answer:

 

 

 

Question: Is the noise present with the transmission removed?

 

Answer: yes

 

 

 

Tech's question:

 

What is the most efficient route to proceed for repair? This vehicle has had three radiator replacements thus far. Customer has more than one of these vehicles, and has only complained of ongoing problems with THIS vehicle. Would like authorization for a complete engine assembly replacement, due to extent of damage.

 

 

 

Hotline response:

 

Michael, recommend to review TSB 09-23-1 to check for malfunctioning thermostats. This can cause repeat radiator failures. Also remove the water pump and check for cavitation in the front cover. If found replacement of the water pump and front cover will be required.

Recommend to continue with a teardown to determine the total damage and the parts required to repair. Only include the parts that would come on a complete engine assembly. Example, the radiator would not be included in the cost cap estimate. Include a water pump, oil pump and oil cooler in the estimate if using a short block for repair. Then perform a cost cap analysis and continue with the repairs if under the cost cap of $10,000. If over the cost cap, fill out a diesel engine prior approval form and include the root cause, damage found and parts required for repair (using WSM component testing procedures), prices of the individual components, labor time and labor rate.

 

 

 

 

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Additional Diag/Comments

 

 

 

Comment from: technician Comment Date: 11/10/2009 3:50:20 PM

 

Okay, just to clarify. Vehicle in its current state does NOT drive due to engine damage. Most recent radiator replacement was done at approximately 88,000 kms. RETAIL due to expiry of basic warranty coverage. If I understand correctly, newly released TSB 09-23-01 instructs you to DRIVE vehicle at 100 km/h and monitor ECT/EOT correlation. In its present state, this obviously CANNOT be done.

 

 

 

Comment from: Hotline Comment Date: 11/10/2009 4:15:40 PM

 

Michael,

Please refer to step 5 of TSB 09-23-1. "If vehicle is not drivable and the coolant leak is found to be from the radiator, remove and replace both thermostats and radiator. Refer to WSM, Section 303-03 for both radiator and thermostat removal procedure and approved cooling system draining, filling and bleeding procedures." If a thermostat concern is present it may lead to repeat radiator failures. If you find that a thermostat is damaged or elongated and has resulted in a radiator leak and engine failure the repairs would be covered under the warranty of the causal component. If you determine a failed thermostat has caused this concern proceed with engine teardown to determine the extent of engine damage and perform a cost cap for all necessary parts and labor to complete engine repairs. If a thermostat fault is not present determine the causal component to determine the warrantability of this repair. If the radiator covered under SPW the engine damage may be covered as well. Please consult your warranty and policy manual or warranty administrator to determine the warrantability of this repair. If further assistance is necessary please call the technical hotline to discuss this concern.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Additional comments or diagnostic info

 

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The Technical Hotline is closed for the holiday until 11/27/2009 8:00:00 AM Eastern. Normal operations will resume at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Call Log:

 

Calls to hotline for this vehicle:

 

 

 

11/10/2009 4:45:00 PM - Tech said:

 

While driving customer encounter a coolant loss and white smoke. On the way to the dealer, the engine started knocking and stalled. Tech has found a rod through the side of the block and one of the EGR coolers is leaking. Note: Customer has had multiple radiators replaced, however currently the radiator is not leaking.

 

 

11/10/2009 4:45:00 PM - Hotline recommended:

 

Recommend performing any necessary engine disassembly, to determine the most effective repair and if necessary get any necessary engine approvals from Oakville.

 

[Aaron]

Pull valves from head with the 'sploded rod, they can look OK even if they ain't.

 

Make sure you put stats in it an evaluate before doing any engine repairs!

 

[DwayneGorniak]

Originally Posted By: cbriggs

Quote:

Give me an EGR valve or a straight forward repair which seems to be very rare on these pieces of shit

 

 

 

Thats for sure, not alot of straight forward common failures like the 6.0l.

Shortblock repairs are common failures either from overfueling injectors or lifters coming apart. Then you have that EGT 13 sensor that likes to go out. High Pressure pump failures are becoming a common concern. Radiators are being done by the thousands. Not as easy as the 6.0 but they are common and straight forward.

 

From now on, whenever I have a shortened rod on a 6.4L and over fueling issues I will always pull the exhaust valves. From what I have seen lately, exhaust valves and seats are something that can be overlooked way to easily on these engines.

 

 

 

Mike, did you remove the exhaust valves for inspection?

[DwayneGorniak]

Pull valves from head with the 'sploded rod, they can look OK even if they ain't.

 

Make sure you put stats in it an evaluate before doing any engine repairs!

 

 

 

How's your 6.4L turnin out for ya Aaran? I hear Jim was a real help.

[mchan68]

From now on, whenever I have a shortened rod on a 6.4L and over fueling issues I will always pull the exhaust valves. From what I have seen lately, exhaust valves and seats are something that can be overlooked way to easily on these engines.

Well, as you can see, the rod kinda went a little beyond SHORTENED.

 

 

 

Originally Posted By: DwayneGorniak

Mike, did you remove the exhaust valves for inspection?

Nope, but I will follow your suggestion tomorrow. Should I be quoting a cylinder #8 injector too, or is that a stupid question?

[Keith Browning]

Mike, I read the original post here and, I have to say that there are times when contacting the HotLine is like talking to a wall and other times it is a great learning experience. With that said, and reading your HotLine report, I can only say this was a teachable moment. Personally, I would not have even contacted them for an engine failure. There is no reason to nor is it a requirement. You offered too much information and left your question wide open to be taken wayyyyyy of topic.

 

I know you to be a smart technician. If you know you have a failure, do as complete of a tear down as needed to make a complete estimate and cost cap comparison then fill out the form and let it rip. Save your energy for the prior approval form.

 

I have a failed 6.4L waiting for me after the holiday weekend. I have been there three times already. I feel your pain.

[DwayneGorniak]

Keith, up here we are required to contact Hotline before we are allowed to fill out prior approval for engine replacements. However, we usually don't get any prior approval before a complete inspection and determination of engine damage is performed and root cause is found.

[Keith Browning]

Naturally... but I was unaware that you had to contact them first. The responce Mike got just rubbed me the wrong way.