I heard it's not nice to pick on stupid people....

[Aaron]

But I'm doing it anyway.

 

I recently joined the monkey house.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaand here's how I beat up on the morons over there:

 

Originally Posted By: LHMissions;1523595

My '03 6.0 is having the ARP stud install with cab on!. My mechanic is doing the work with cab on - considerably more difficult - but no room in the shop to take the cab off. The shop is very busy. Getting new HG's too! The heads were warped so they were sent out to a machine shop and have been decked within ford spec. Also having a 4" turbo back exhaust with 4" down pipe, EGR delete, EGT probe. Looking forward to getting it back!

 

The gaskets typically dont fail - its the cheap head studs Ford used that stretch allowing then the gaskets to fail. I was suprised just how light weight the factory bolts were. Kinda shocking.

 

What factory spec did they machine them to?

 

This one?

 

Originally Posted By: FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL

NOTE: The cylinder heads used on the diesel engine cannot be resurfaced. Do not attempt to machine or resurface the cylinder heads.

 

If the 0.1 mm ( 0.004 in) feeler gauge can be easily pulled out from under the Gauge Bar (or straightedge) without resistance, the cylinder head is out of specification and must be replaced.

 

To quote Denis Leary...I'm an asshole, and I'm PROUD OF IT.

[Jim Warman]

I've been kicked off the monkeyhouse... I said "opinions are like @ssholes" and a moderator took exception to my character substitution... ("@" for "a").

 

S0, l 5tarted 5ubstituting 0ther ch@r@cter5... and I got punted...

[Mekanik]

That's funny.

[Keith Browning]

Jim, you got booted from ANOTHER forum?

[mchan68]

Makes me wonder who's been booted from more forums, Rex or Jim?

[Jim Warman]

I seem to have some sort of effect on some folks... I once caught absolute shit for putting up a sign that said "RTFM!!!". I was told it was a bit rude and showed some level of intolerance....

 

Not that I could ever be rude or intolerant, mind you....

[Bruce Amacker]

Ditto. I used to accept phone calls from my students for tech support until it became overwhelming. Once a guy knew I answered the phone, he put my phone number in his autodial and would call me before doing simple research or RTFM. I remember one day getting nearly 30 calls for tech support, which pushed me over the line. I now interrupt politely, "Is this a tech support phone call? Sorry, I do not accept tech support phone calls." and tell them to e-mail me. 99% do not. The ones that really pissed me off were guys who would call me with a complaint BEFORE they even hooked a scan tool or pressure gauge to the truck. I was F'ing rude with those guys...

 

 

This may sound impolite, but most of the time the level of questions did not warrant calling me. I know another national instructor that writes his cell phone number on the board in each class, but he does not answer it, and does not return phone messages! I tell guys in class I don't accept phone calls for tech support. If you call with a question about where to get a tool, or what tool to use, that's no problem. Just don't call me with a, "I've got a truck that's doing this-" statement.

 

It was the stupid people that ruined it for the people that didn't abuse it. There's also pay-lines like Identifix that they can call, but they wanted me for free.

 

 

 

 

[mrbudge]

I was going to get a 1-900 number so at least I could get paid for my tech hotline services, or at least get some heavy breathing over the phone. Now I just let the calls go to voice mail, if I am feeling generous and call someone back, usually the next day, they have figured out by themselves by that time. It is just easier to pick up the phone, I guess.

[Aaron]

I like the people that call, as discussed in another thread, wanting to know a labor time for something.

 

I told a guy a GOOD mechanic could do a 6.0 front cover in an E-series in about 3 hours.

[BrunoWilimek]

I have a select few techs that I answer tech questions for over the phone. They are guys I have known for years or worked with in the past. They are also friends that will do me favours in return. On the other hand, I had a guy from the local Mr. Transmission shop that was a PITA. He would call, asking for a quick fix and then give me a slow, rambling, long-winded query that always took me some time to research the answer to. I would have to call him back and would frequently be put on hold while he answered a "more important" call. I hung up on him the last time, because he put me on hold before he even asked me the question he was calling about. Also, his business has screwed some of our customers over the years, so we no longer do business with them. I had been given some favours from them in years gone by, which meant I owed them, but no more. My time is valuable too.

[Alex Bruene]

I don't tell people over the phone anything. In fact, I will give (some select people) inaccurate information if anything. Your knowledge is your knowledge. Why give it away for free? Especially to people who are essentially nothing more than your competition. JMHO.

 

As for "The Monkey House"... I was flipping through their forums for the first time in several months the other day... I was suprised that nothing has changed. I started to fill in a reply to a thread, but quickly deleted it and logged off.

[DwayneGorniak]

I don't understand why we give out information to our direct competition either. I just plain refuse to myself. I worked hard enough to get all this damn training over the years so that I can get the damned work out of it. Why should I give info out that will cut my own damned throat financially?

[Alex Bruene]

Dwayne, I get calls all the time put through from the parts department. I have actually gone so far to say to a parts customer, "My friend, that kind of information is not free". The parts manager complained to the service manager, and the service manager came out and shook my hand for doing that.

[Jim Warman]

Dwayne, I get calls all the time put through from the parts department. I have actually gone so far to say to a parts customer, "My friend, that kind of information is not free". The parts manager complained to the service manager, and the service manager came out and shook my hand for doing that.

Would the new vehicle sales manager or the DP be so quick to congratulate? We take our profits from where we can get them.... all the while remembering that the dealership is all about several departments... and all of them might be further ahead if they spent a little time making each other look good... rather than trying to make the "other guy" look worse.

 

Narrow minded "us against them" thinking can make the ownership arrangement something less than pleasant... and can be closer to cutting ones own throat than any "freeby info" could ever be....

 

But.... complex relationships are always oversimplified when our knee gives a good jerk....

 

Line techs should only ever need to interact with a customer as it pertains to a specific RO... reproducing symptoms that are difficult top reproduce... additional required info that wasn't proffered at the tine the job was written up...

 

For customers requesting advice... be it from the service desk, the parts department, the sales department (you will have to show me that "I" in TEAMWORK) or where-ever... there are times to look at the big picture....

 

Let's say we have a customer... he has no say in where a truck is purchased.... but he can choose where he get's the parts from (this would, if you haven't noticed, be a fleet setting). Over the course of a month, I might spend no time with him... and then, one month or two, I might spend a couple or three hours with him. Remembering that he spends about 5 or 10K dollars a month in the parts dept...... is any one of us prepared to tell him to fuck off?

 

The fleet owner.... this could be a seedy looking little guy.... he bought 12 trucks four years ago.... we pissed him off with our "I don't give free advice" attitude about the time he bought "other trucks" and today we have a chance to attract him back.... should we tell him to fuck off?

 

When it comes to advice... each case needs to be weighed carefully.... should I obfuscate? Can I feed this guy just enough info to make jhim feel good about forgetting his efforts and scheduling a service appointment? Should I just bite the bullet and give him what he needs in order to sustain the proven business we get from him? How much time can I "invest"... how much time can I "waste"? It's a balancing act... and I expect I will never get it perfect.

 

The curve ball.... part of the human condition is the need for acceptance, a pat on the back, an "atta-boy"... perhaps even something approaching reverance... Every last person that puffs his feathers and pronounces "no free info from me" has a 90% chance of being guilty of what he denies... There isn't one person amongst us that doesn't feel good when we earn someones undying gratitude... so let's cut the fucking crap...

 

iATN...... iATN will live and die based on other peoples need for self-gratification.... Billy-Bob refuses to buy a manual or take a training course... someone will step up to the plate and impress Billy-Bob with his documentation/acumen/tools/ whatever.... He will feel good... especially if he can make Billy-Bob look like a fool without Billy-Bob realizing it...

 

For some strange reason....... department managers at the dealership level lose sight of the "teamwork factor". They are determined to show the DP that THEY and THEY ALONE are the reason for the stores success.... In some respects, the DP may promote this thinking... unwittingly and unwillingly for the most part...

 

And that...... will be a subject for another post....

 

It's not all about "free info"... it's about being in a busy bar.... and knowing which person to buy a drink for... and knowing all the people not to buy a drink for....

 

"I never give advice"????? I came to Canada on a boat... but it wasn't a recent boat.... Knowledge is currency... we can spend it for a pat on the back... we can spend it to enhance our store... we need to spend it wisely. Most guys choose the wrong time to deny or dispense.

 

"Free" advice..... learn when to say what to who.... the idea is to be as helpful as you NEED to be.

 

I have customers that have known me since about 1980... now and again, they may stray (human nature, remember?)... When they are in need - they know what store to go to...

 

I have underwear older than some of you guys.....

[Aaron]

(you will have to show me that "I" in TEAMWORK)

There is no I in team...but there is a ME (kidding...)

 

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

I have underwear older than some of you guys.....

 

Too much information, good sir!

[joshbuys]

When it comes to advice... each case needs to be weighed carefully.... should I obfuscate? Can I feed this guy just enough info to make jhim feel good about forgetting his efforts and scheduling a service appointment? Should I just bite the bullet and give him what he needs in order to sustain the proven business we get from him? How much time can I "invest"... how much time can I "waste"? It's a balancing act... and I expect I will never get it perfect.

Well said!!!! I often share 'SOME' information with individuals, and often times I tell them that 'I cannot tell you EXACTLY what's wrong with it without seeing it' sometimes this brings them into the shop, sometimes it doesn't.

 

Either way it USUALLY ends with them buying some parts!

 

Guys often think of giving this information away as a bad thing because

Quote:

WE spent all this time and effort into learning it and now it's MINE!

and to that I say

Quote:

ATTA BOY!

The information I have is not MINE to own, but to share - to better myself and those around me! It is the expectation of HIGHER POWERS of each of us to lift those around us, and if that requires sharing information that we OWN then so be it.

[DwayneGorniak]

Welll.....Last I checked, I heaven't seen Canadian Tire or any of the local Indy shops send any of their left over work our way when our techs are standing around. It's different when you have a customer that buys vehicles from your dealership and supports your dealership. Sure you want to help those guys out. But to help out the local Indy shops that won't spend a fucking dime on proper literature, diagnostic tools and tech training is just plain fucking stupid. They're not sending any of their customers our way are they? And by giving out that information, we are allowing our customers to go over there and get all of their repairs done with our blessings. Hell, when the Indy shops call we might as well just hand them the service manuals, the IDS, and our tools and let them get all the work, that way we're saving the customers money in labour costs. Then we'd be really nice super helpful super hero guys huh?

 

 

Cheers anyway. Just my opinion.

[Jim Warman]

Well.... I don't think anyone will argue those points... proper documentation is called a "cost of doing business"...

 

At the same time, we all need to be sure that the boot we are piussing on today isn't attached to the ass we may have to kiss tomorrow...

 

FWIW, we don't send any of our leftover work to an indy shop, either.... but, somedays, we make sure that we send lots of work to independant shops... we price ourselves out of the market... we give a customer back a truck we had to boost because we kept the key on half the day... we give him attitude (hey buddy... THAT'LL COST you).

 

I'm not saying hand out tools and manuals to anyone that asks... an assumption like that is a little... sophomoric? perhaps? I am saying there is a good way to handle a situation and many bad ways to handle a situation...

 

Anything that any one of us says or does will be interpreted by that customer as "them dorks down at Ford"....

 

Choosing our words and actions carefully is important...

[DwayneGorniak]

I would think that Indy shops see techs that leave batteries dead as well. I guess that all boils down to shitty techs and management not picking up on it soon enough or possibly not not doing enough about it to discipline techs. As far as pissing on someone's boots......I really don't think any of us really need to kiss the Indy shops asses. They sure as hell don't kiss ours. Now if we have customers that have fleets and have maintenance techs and they are good customers that is also a different story. They are our customers and usually bring their major repairs to us especially after they've usually screwed something up. But I sure as hell don't see why any of us should kiss the Indy shops asses. All they ever do is bitch about the prices from "them dorks down at Ford".

[mchan68]

I would think that Indy shops see techs that leave batteries dead as well. I guess that all boils down to shitty techs and management not picking up on it soon enough or possibly not not doing enough about it to discipline techs. As far as pissing on someone's boots......I really don't think any of us really need to kiss the Indy shops asses. They sure as hell don't kiss ours. Now if we have customers that have fleets and have maintenance techs and they are good customers that is also a different story. They are our customers and usually bring their major repairs to us especially after they've usually screwed something up. But I sure as hell don't see why any of us should kiss the Indy shops asses. All they ever do is bitch about the prices from "them dorks down at Ford".

......and this is when I will throw in my I get more than my share of the "calls" from the indy shops that handle their fleets. It's gotten to the point where I don't even bother answering pages for phone calls anymore, given that I have to walk a half mile in either direction to take the call anyways. I figure if it's something important a message will be left for me anyways. Dwayne, don't think for a minute that these indy shops won't send business in our direction. Because THEY DO, if a particular repair is required is COVERED UNDER WARRANTY. How many times, do you guys see trucks darkening your doorsteps with brand spanking new brakes, ball joints and tires etc? But the blown coolers or the blown STC fittings getting sent to US. And now, with these 6.0L trucks' warranties expiring, you can damn well bet that we will be seeing far fewer of them now, unless it ends up at an indy shop for a driveability issue they can't figure out, and then end up on OUR doorstep, expecting only having to pay the one hour diag to "tell them what's wrong with it", so they can fix it themselves. Sorry for the rant, but this is starting to get under my skin a little.

[Jim Warman]

Here we go again... life isn't black and white.. life is shades of grey... I didn't say you were going to kiss the ass of an indy shop or one of their techs... however... there may come a time (at this point it is important to never say 'never') where one of these stores or outlets may save your bacon... it may be something inconsequential, but something they can offer will allow you to save face with your customer... unless you have already burned those bridges...

 

You will find that indy techs will often bad mouth dealer techs... part of that reason is because dealer techs eventually develop the idea that their shit don't stink....

 

We refuse to work together... and I fail to see the common sense in that... Lawyers work together and their proferssion is self regulating.... Doctors work together and their profession is self regulating... Techs are holier than thou, at each others throats and they get more government...

 

DUH!!!

 

Take a tech... in your store... in another store... Give him the knowledge... the knowledge that shows the importance of documentation and whatever training he can get... the knowledge to perform appropriate testing and to perform it properly (not this bullshit Ford ohmeter for grounds, voltmeter for source voltage testing). Instill the thought process that enables him to choose a better test for the task at hand...

 

The idea is to take capable techs... help them learn the skills they need to excell at their trade.... help them become better at what they do... band together... develop a self regulating body... get rid of the wannabes that can't read or that don't have the balls to insist that they have access to the proper manuals...

 

We are all in this leaky fucking barge together.... you and I will never look good because we share the seas with assholes.... we work amongst "techs" that might have been better off with a rewarding career in the food and hospitality industry...

 

Every second tech I talk to is dissatisfied with his career... all he looks at is what he can take from the industry... never at what he can put back in.... As techs, we owe it to each other to realize who is teachable and who is a waste of time... We need to improve the labour pool... we need to improve how the public and industry leaders perceive us... and if we are a few roses standing in a field of dandelions... we wont be perceived as being very pretty... We need to grow a few more roses... and get rid of more dandelions...

 

Knee jerk reactionism is folly... it is plain dumb.... If we want things to improve in this trade, it is up to US to improve them....

 

You will find that much of our time is spent closing ourselves off from the marketplace... Maybe there's a reason why the indy shop gets to do the brakes and ball joints???? And maybe it has more to do with us than them....

 

Warranty work happens... retail sales require cultivation...

[DwayneGorniak]

Yeah, 15% above suggested retail price on parts is a good place to start as to why we're pricing ourselves out of the market as well.

 

Quote: "As techs, we owe it to each other to realize who is teachable and who is a waste of time..."

 

I'll help teach anyone I work along side with, especially in the dealership industry. But as far teaching Indy techs goes.....that is a complete waste of all of our dealerships time and my own. We get paid to be the best we can be. I just don't get paid to make Indy techs the best they can be.

[GregH]

Our dealership was very nearly a victim of the recession. I'm glad that I haven't had a track record of pissing on the competition, since I almost needed someone else's signature on my paychecks...

[DwayneGorniak]

It's not about pissing on the competition for me. In fact, no one needs to be pissing on them at all. All I'm saying is that "THEY ARE THE COMPETITION".

 

 

Here we all are sticking up for them and I hear more pissing and moaning about dealership technicians that are less desired and leave batteries go dead and so on and etc. If we spent as much of this effort actually working together and teaching the young fellers not to leave batteries go dead as we do praising Indy techs we might actually be able to build up higher quality service departments and impress the hell out of our customers. We talk about it in these forums all the time about how we are superhero's because we fixed a fuck up that was back at the dealership two or three times and the tech down at the other end of the shop or even at another dealership couldn't fix it.

 

I'll put my effort into the professionals I work work with and the professionals I deal with here in my spare time. But when I'm at work, I get paid to perform flat rate repairs and compete with the competition.

[Brad Clayton]

We had a tech that went out on his own. He's been doin pretty good for himself, but I would say he is average at best in his repairs. Unfortunately alot of customer base is ok with this, and it reflects the old adage that you get what you pay for. He has called me from time to time on my cell. And I have helped out when I can. He called yesterday and offered me a egr cooler job, at his place on my day off. I had to respectfully decline. Why? Well it sure wasn't because I dont do side work, but rather it was the offer itself. First, he only wants to do the egr cooler, and we all know that aint gonna fly, and last he was gonna pay me a handsome sum of $200.