Has the recession ended?

[Tony302600]

I hear the recession is over...but then i hear it from someone that has never worked a day in their life. What do you guys think? I don't think we've hit the hardest part. My mom works at 5/3rd mortgage and tells me every month 1,000's of jobs go over to india.

 

Until we get out of WTO, NAFTA we will never get out of a recession. Until we change our trade policies and tarrifs nothing is going to change here.

 

The way it should be is like this. If something cost's $1 to make here...and a company ships that job overseas and it cost 10cents to make it in china...we should have a 90cent import tax on it to offset that lost job. That's what other countries do...why not us?

 

That will make those corporations think before they ship a damn job overseas.

[ChristopherH]

I agree, I don't think the recession is over either. Funny how it sprang up and got really bad in time for the last election and now it is getting better leading into the 2010 elections! Dittos on losing jobs overseas also. I remember seeing a commercial the other day where a guy goes on a "Made In The USA" kick and starts throwing stuff out of his house if it wasn't made here. He threw out all the kitchen stuff, furniture, electronics, etc. and was soon left with an empty house and the only thing left was his Henry rifle over the mantle! Sad but true--it is getting hard to find the items you use everyday that are made in USA.

[Jim Warman]

I've set out to answer this a few times... and scratched every last one of them....

 

Trying to keep it as simple as possible.... we are the reason jobs get shipped overseas... Consumers looking for cheaper prices.... employees looking for higher rewards... businesses looking for bigger profits... Throw all of these in a big pot and stir....

 

Sadly, there are no surprises here.... we got what we've been asking for.

[Tony302600]

How are things up there Jim and Dwayne and all others up there.

 

Jim don't you agree that employers should pay their employees fair wages so they can afford the product they are producing. That's what Henry Ford did.

 

Side note. From what i hear...China is buying ALL the mines in the world. That's just great to hear...and they are securing exclusive manufacturing for windmills.

[DwayneGorniak]

 

don't you agree that employers should pay their employees fair wages so they can afford the product they are producing. That's what Henry Ford did.

 

 

 

I agree to that statement somewhat. I believe that employers should pay their employees fairly and that employers should respect their employees and not treat them like property. All too often I see employers turn into control freaks. I have a huge problem with that. No-one owns anyone and no employer should ever try to hold an employee at ransom. But employees should respect fair pay and fair treatment as well. And employees should never try to hold their employers at ransom like I see unions do. I used to work for a union years ago and I saw it first hand. Respect needs to go both ways.

 

Anyway, besides all that crap, we're still in the middle of this recession up here and I would say that we will still be in it for at least another year. I hope it gets better soon though. It reminds me of the recession that I starved through in Saskatchewan in the 90's. Man those were shitty times.

[Jim Warman]

Employers should pay their workers fairly.. no problem....

 

Ermmmmm - are we talking about the employees that will install an EGR delete on a daily driver? The professional tech that should be paid for his forsight, knowledge and integrity?

 

Or are we talking about the "Hey, sailor... wanna get lucky"? I'll do anything for a fucking dollar prostitech?.. whoops, prostitute.

 

What can I fucking say? If you want to be treated as a professional, you need to be sure that we are all looking like professionals.

 

As it is, we all look like a bunch of dorks because of cavalier attitudes regarding emissions controls... FUCK ME!!! Is anyone awake in here?

 

If you act like a pro.. you will be treated like one... if you flout the law.... gosh - what can I say?

 

Yes... we deserve better than what we get... unfortunately, we haven't earned it.

[DwayneGorniak]

Hell yeah! Especially when you work for employers that display brand spanky new trucks on the lot with lift kits, mudders, and all kinds of after market accessories installed on them with that brand spanky new decal still on the left window, Employers that constantly turn a blind eye to after market accessories because "WELL....HE'S ONE OF OUR REALLY GOOD CUSTOMERS", Employers that Warranty the steering gear boxes on trucks with eight inch lift kits, etc, etc, etc. The professional tech that should be paid for his or her foresight, knowledge, and integrity should also expect the same morals from the so called professional employers. How professional do all these types of practices look all across this North American Continent? Customers drive by these places and say.....well looky here....I can buy that cock pump and they're gonna have to warranty it. And don't tell me that waivers deter this attitude.....because they don't. We still warranty the shit out of these things. With shit like that going on........well what can I say...... we will always look like dorks! Professionalism needs to practiced by those who preech it all to often and don't follow through with what they are talking about!

[jaysonfordtech]

Well boys a the end of a recession is defined by a quarter of growing GDP. We have had that, so the answer is yes. Employment is a lagging indicator. Should we fight the natural movement of work to places that have a strategic advantage in that area? No, we should continue the path of growing our workforce in the areas we have a strategic advantage. We should use the $ we squander on bailouts to retrain employees moved out of the workforce by these structural changes. We will NEVER be better off by walling off ourselves from people who can do something better or cheaper. If i can make 1 green widget or 17 red widgets a day, and someone else can make 1 red widget or 15 green widgets a day, would we not be better doing the things we are good at and trading. so we both have more of all kinds of things. Please study history before looking to protectionism to save jobs. I'm not saying that tariffs are not needed at times, but by and large they destroy more jobs in the aggregate. That being said we are not out of the woods yet. There are real dangers to this possible recovery. On a personal front I am noticing a real change in the outlook of my commercial customers, and the retail customers are not so scared to spend. This could all stop at any time, but for now there is a bit of a spark.

[Jim Warman]

Hell yeah! Especially when you work for employers that display brand spanky new trucks on the lot with lift kits, mudders, and all kinds of after market accessories installed on them with that brand spanky new decal still on the left window, Employers that constantly turn a blind eye to after market accessories because "WELL....HE'S ONE OF OUR REALLY GOOD CUSTOMERS", Employers that Warranty the steering gear boxes on trucks with eight inch lift kits, etc, etc, etc. The professional tech that should be paid for his or her foresight, knowledge, and integrity should also expect the same morals from the so called professional employers. How professional do all these types of practices look all across this North American Continent? Customers drive by these places and say.....well looky here....I can buy that cock pump and they're gonna have to warranty it. And don't tell me that waivers deter this attitude.....because they don't. We still warranty the shit out of these things. With shit like that going on........well what can I say...... we will always look like dorks! Professionalism needs to practiced by those who preech it all to often and don't follow through with what they are talking about!

I'm allowed to be a sinner because other people sin.....

 

Interesting concept.

 

So... sales dept put together some travesty. That has to do with the sales dept.

 

We fix broken things.... we do not get to choose what is warranty and what isn't. We can advise.... we can write our story... but we do not make policy decisions and we should never pretend to do that.

 

WE fix trucks.... Thats all we do.... If somebody else wants to be a !?@#%!, that is his decision... why should it affect you?

[Keith Browning]

WE fix trucks.... Thats all we do.... If somebody else wants to be a !?@#%!, that is his decision... why should it affect you?

It affects him (and us) because "WE" is a subjective term: WE are part of the dealership team and typically anything any part of that team does in a negative sense affects the entire team. "WE" become "THEM" in the eyes of the customers and Ford Motor Company, therefore anything bad that "WE" do makes "US" all look bad.

 

Assuming Dwayne has a sense of pride, a fair sense of morality and wants to be as professional and successful as he can be, bad decisions and judgments made by anyone at the dealership will affect him because it makes HIM look bad regardless of the extent of his involvement.

 

In this type of situation we risk negative attention from one direction or another.

[*] Deny coverage to a customer and you will piss him off, maybe. (many of these clowns are simply trying to see what they can get for free - hell it is worth a try!)

 

.

[*]Cover something you shouldn't and Ford takes notice then there will be a list of people who will be angry - Ford, WE, and US. (basically everyone involved regardless of their actual involvement)

In either case my friends, "THEY" at that dealer will all look bad when one of "US" does something wrong that "WE" shouldn't have. So tell me Jim, why shouldn't it affect him and for that matter, why shouldn't it affect YOU?

 

[DwayneGorniak]

Thank you Keith. Well said. I was trying to find a way to put it into words like that. Again, Well said.

 

Fixing trucks is "NOT" all "WE" do.

 

"WE" all look like dorks when shit like this is going on. And the dorks need to be straightened out at the top. Because those dorks make "US" look like even bigger dorks. When "WE ON THE FRONT LINES REPORT ALL OF OUR FINDINGS" and then we are told it's warranty after a bunch of fucking heckling with the customer......"WE" look like "REALLY BIG FUCKING DORKS". Especially when "WE" are being paid to do modifications by our "EMPLOYERS".

 

So.....Until These "DORKS" who pay "US" to perform "ALL" of these types of repairs and modifications get their fucking shit together, "WE" will always look like fucking "DORKS:.

[Jim Warman]

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

WE fix trucks.... Thats all we do.... If somebody else wants to be a !?@#%!, that is his decision... why should it affect you?

It affects him (and us) because "WE" is a subjective term: WE are part of the dealership team and typically anything any part of that team does in a negative sense affects the entire team. "WE" become "THEM" in the eyes of the customers and Ford Motor Company, therefore anything bad that "WE" do makes "US" all look bad.

 

Assuming Dwayne has a sense of pride, a fair sense of morality and wants to be as professional and successful as he can be, bad decisions and judgments made by anyone at the dealership will affect him because it makes HIM look bad regardless of the extent of his involvement.

 

In this type of situation we risk negative attention from one direction or another.

[*] Deny coverage to a customer and you will piss him off, maybe. (many of these clowns are simply trying to see what they can get for free - hell it is worth a try!)

 

.

[*]Cover something you shouldn't and Ford takes notice then there will be a list of people who will be angry - Ford, WE, and US. (basically everyone involved regardless of their actual involvement)

In either case my friends, "THEY" at that dealer will all look bad when one of "US" does something wrong that "WE" shouldn't have. So tell me Jim, why shouldn't it affect him and for that matter, why shouldn't it affect YOU?

 

 

<SIGH> And my entire point was missed....

 

Let's back up a step.... I don't know how it is with you.... For my part I do not decide policy.. I advise, I suggest... but, I do not make the decision.

 

Apparently, some of the stuff I have been saying all along has been for nothing... What do I constantly say about teamwork? About working together for the common good? I take it even further in my daily routine... I punch in at 8AM and I punch out at noon - Effectively, I have sold that block of time to my employer... it is no longer "MY" time. Yet we're going to try our best to take a simple statement out of context... Fuck... we're even going to try and build a whole new context around it...

 

As I was saying... we cannot base our actions on the fact that somneone else is doing something we find offensive.

 

Sales sells a truck with a lift kit. So fucking what? When we repair the truck, add a line "removed front wheels and settled suspension onto wood blocks due to lift kit".

 

Other than that, how will this decision to sell such a truck affect us? Was the failure a result of the modification? I told the powers that be about the modification - what's my next step... a full page ad in the local paper? I have fulfilled my part of the equation... I suggest that a particular repair is or isn't warrantable. I do not make the final decision... nor do I want to make that decision. In our store THAT is someone elses job and he can fucking have it for all I care.

 

So that all isn't forgotten, we should be in a position to prioritze repairs for retail customers... what needs to be done now? What can wait? Bottom line... all we're going to do is fix a car...

 

Not long ago, I can across a cracked DPF... tailpipe full of soot... a cloud of black dust every time you revved it... Aftermarket, open weave filter under the hood. This job was going retail, I was assured... good deal - no warranty class story. Some tiome later, I was handed the RO and admonished for the shitty story I offered for warranty... You're going to bust my chops for a decision I wasn't allowed to make? A decision that got changed, anyway?

 

Look at it this way... all we fucking do is fix trucks... we can make suggestions and give advice as to the warrantability of a repair... but, in OUR STORE, we DO NOT make the finbal decision... Ergo, all we do is fix trucks.

 

Now.. it is up to each and every one of us if we fix them right, if we fix them poorly, if we have no attention to detail or if we agonize over every detail, do we replace more parts than we need to? Do we replace parts that even needed replacing? Do we return the truck in the same or better condition that we received it? If we do more than fix trucks, what is this magical labour op?

 

Fuck me.. the sales department is busy trying to make a sale... they are doing questionable things to a truck because if they wont - somebody else will (imagine how some guy that has integrity feels when he realizes he has to compete with people that have NO integrity). The sales department is busy trying to cultivate repeat sales... in a marketplace filled with people that have no integrity... Gee... isn't that getting to be a catchword?

[Keith Browning]

Jim, your point was not missed. I get it... not sure if others are following. Take your last post just above. In a situation where sales makes a promise or sells a truck that is, let's simply say is equipped in a manor that warranty coverage is deniable. I spend time verifying and diagnosing concerns, writing up a parts and labor estimate and making my "recommendations" only to lose all of that time and correct the concern at a HUGE time loss under warranty. Shit rolls down hill and it apparently the shit ball grows larger and larger as it is rolling toward us in the service bay.

 

For the record, I haven't sold my employer ANY FUCKING TIME just because I am on the clock. I am paid Piece-Work. I MAKE time and until I do, I can't sell it. Therefore all of the time I spend on a vehicle, chasing red tape and asking for approval to repair a truck is LOST.

 

And for what? Because somebody else made a bad decision and now another one is going to be made? Both will affect MY wallet the most. After all, isn't that what this is really about?

 

ME!

 

If I sell a truck with a lift kit it is good for ME! If I sell a truck with a TUNER it is good for ME! If I warranty this customer's head gaskets it is good for ME! Screw the people down the line that have to deal with the consequences later on. FUCK ME JIM!

 

In a time of recession I cant afford to suck it up any more. And for those who think that the recession is over? Be very careful. We ARE going to go back down hill again before it gets better... if it ever does.

 

 

Jim - I would love to be sitting next to you in a pub somewhere.

[Tony302600]

It be awesome to have all of us at a pub shootin the shit and just talking about everything.

[Jim Warman]

Just one more conumdrum....

 

I am hourly.. I am hourly partly because I can deal with the written word... I am hourly partly because there has been a LOT of water under my bridge...

 

"Back in the day" flat rate was a reward for efficiency...

 

Today, flat rate is a "dangling carrot"... an enticement to improving efficiency... even if there is no way to improve it.

 

The problem... and this is something you need to consider... appears to be in your store. You perform a diagnosis and fail to get paid for it.... Is that Ford? Is that your store?

 

The car has a lift kit... it has a chip... it has "something" to make it more attractive to a customer... in todays marketplace, this is a requirement...

 

Yes... in the long run it IS all about me. My job is built around what MY customer thinks about ME....

 

I tell them that I will make sure their concern is fixed... I desparately need to make sure that whoever is doing the fixing doesn't turn me into a liar.... If I don't, it is ME that will explain....

 

If yu aren't getting paid for something, it has fuck all to do with a lift kit or a chip.

 

Got a driveabilty concern? Lose the chip... get it out of here and come back with the truck "au naturelle". Got a mechanical concern? The mod was/wasn't a contributing factor...

 

If you aren't getting paid for time spent... it has little to do with the subject at hand - and it has much to do with the people you work for...

 

I don't think that I have ever made a secret out of my customer orientation... I am my customers last defence against the mother corporation. If he isn't the author of his own demise... I need to be on his side...

 

At the same time, the decision isn't mine to make. I suggest... I advise... I diagnose... I do not choose.

 

I fix cars... that's all I do. I suggest priorities... I suggest warrantability.... I suggest repair strategies... In the end... all I can ever hope to do is fix cars...

 

FWIW.. all youi or I can ever hope to do is to report the conditions as we find them.. Oh... wouldn't it be nice to play God and allow or deny warranty as we see fit....

 

Sadly, allowing or denying warranty is a political thing. We are mechanics... we are "machine" people. We generally have little in the way of diplomatic skills... we should stick to doing what we know.

 

If your boss said "do this" and didn't pay you for it..... who do you address?

 

Do NOT go drinking with me... I am an opinionated old bastuhd that refuses to give up his antiquated ideals... The whole problem is extremely complex... yet everyone tries to deal with it in compartmentalized little "sub" problems...

 

A young man has AIDS.. does he have it because his sex ed class in school was inadequate ( when I was a kid, sex ed was something to be dealt with AT HOME) - does he have it because he had unprotected sex? (Back in the day blue ointment or penecillin could fix whatever ailed you) - does he have it because he reamed some guy named Bruth (whoops, Bruce)... For this young man... what is the concern... how he got it? or that he has it?

 

Bottom line... it doesn't seem to matter what might be right... it doesn't seem to matter what might be wrong... Bitching about stuff is much easier than doing something about it.

 

The regulations are there in black and white... The penalties for violation are a joke....

 

We "professionals" will continue to flout the regulations... we will break the laws that have no teeth... we will break the law... we will break the law...

 

This business is so full of conumdrums and oxymorons...and it is because we have a cavalier atitude towards things... but we need to have a cavalier atitude towards things because, if we don't, the other guy (obviously he has a high level of integrity) will have all the work.

 

What is right isn't right ( according to public opinion ) and what is wrong has gained public acceptance (to a point).

 

I am only one voice... without support offered by those that have truly considered the options, I will only ever be one voice... No big deal...

 

Once we start treating it like a complex problem (instead of trying to simplify it), we might begin to fix it...

[Tony302600]

With Wall Street and profit grubbing people in the mix, you will never be able to do whats right. You will have to do what's best for the business.

[Jim Warman]

One of those things that is "right for the business" is to ensure that we hve a strong and capable aftermarket (read that as independent shops)...

 

I can't speak for you or Dwayne or anyone else... But having a strong and talented independent store presence is vital to the peace of mind of dealership techs...

 

Read on....

 

Forget the warranty stuff... your target audience is the owner noit far out of warranty... Ideally6, he will have a vehicle between 5 and 10 years old... He will have enough money to maintain his vehicle properly.. to perform most repairs without having to go home and count his pennies or return his empty bottles... his vehivle will be new enough to have sufficient value to justify all mechanical repairs as well as most cosmetic and electronic feature repairs...

 

You will not, in most cases, be forced to prioritze repairs... you will not, in most cases be forced into just getting the thing back on the road... You will have the lattitude to perfrom the repairs you are comfortable with in a manner that will allow you at least sone "gain time".

 

If you do not participate in ensuring that the independent shops in your area can handle these older yet still complex vehicles... read that as vehicles owned by those without sufficient funds to maintain these vehicles comfortable, YOU will be the benefactor of those vehicles older than ten years of age... you will "benefit" from owners unable to afford proper or complete repairs... Your bay just may be plugged with old crap that doesn't pay worth shit while work you can make good coin at goes waiting...

 

I may be old... I may be crazy and I may be full of shit.... but there is a lot more coin to be made off a retail job on a 6 year old truck than you could ever dream of making off a 12 year old truck.

 

But... I'm old... and what the fuck have old guys ever learned?

[Tony302600]

I hope you guys know that the banks and investment companies that we bailed out, are using all that money and more to invest into chinese companies. They know that China is the new economic power house. So if you think we'll get any kind of trade policies that would put tarrif's on imports...than u think wrong. They will lobby the crap outta washington to ensure china get's what they want.

 

Things affecting progress. Banks not lending to small business. Healthcare costing an arm and leg for small business. And banks lending at extremely high interest rates.

 

If I want to borrow 50K for my business (went to chase and ask them) to have a security when times get hard...they have a 29% interest on that. They borrow it from the FED (OUR TAX MONEY) at 1/2% interest. Look at how much money they make.

 

I was listening to Ed Shultz and a guy from ohio or indiana called to say he can put 200machinest to work right away as soon as he can get some capitol from the Department of Energy to make crucial gears for windmills. He cant get a loan from a bank, and has been waiting 3months from DOE to get an answer. Again, shit like this is happening all over america, people can't get access to capitol to start a business or keep theirs afloat.

 

All the presidents are REactive to economic situations...not PROactive like other countries. That's why we're always last to do anything.

 

I heard china's workers are looking to unionize to get fair wages and safer work areas....the companies like WALMART and other giants are looking to Africa for cheap labor. The wheel keeps on turning.

 

Greed always wins in a unregulated free trade economy, the middle class loses.

[joshbuys]

If I want to borrow 50K for my business (went to chase and ask them) to have a security when times get hard...they have a 29% interest on that. They borrow it from the FED (OUR TAX MONEY) at 1/2% interest. Look at how much money they make.

 

Federal Reserve is not owned by the US Government! It is a series of PRIVATELY owned banks....12 of them to be exact, that are "Regulated" by "Government Officers/Laws" Yes our Tax money goes to them (in the form of interest on money borrowed by our "GOVERNMENT" that wouldn't know how to govern a single cell organism let alone OUR COUNTRY!) JFK once signed a bill to pay off the FED, and we all know what happened next!

[Tony302600]

I didn't mean we "OWN" the FED, i meant a private entity control's the value of the dollar. If they were heavily regulated, why when Ron Paul asks the chairman what they're doing with the dollar, they have no idea or they don't want to tell him. That's why he passed the HR1207 to audit them. I can't wait to see what happens when they do that. Alan Greenspan and Ronald Reagan got us into this mess with the "trickle down" theory of economics...look what happened, the average CEO makes 431% of an average entry level employee at 29,000 a year.

 

Government is not the problem, conservatives doing everything possible to make government look bad is what's leaving a sour taste in your guys' mouth. So now whoever is in office is bad regardless of the D or R behind his name. Josh, PM me if you want to have a argument about our government.

[Keith Browning]

I think this discussion has reached it's end.

One of several topics... Politics and government discussions CAN dovetail into discussions concerning our industry and our jobs however this topic is starting to sound like a conservative -V- liberal pissing match and has little value to add to any discussion in this forum. I also fear that we risk needless strife and polarization between members. This is a technical web site and we are all professionals. This is not to say we cannot discuss legislative or political matters however we should be mindful that if we do, we need to keep things relevant. I have always encouraged free and open discussions in the DTS forums and have been VERY (dare I use the term) liberal in allowing various subjects a chance to progress into a useful discussion.

 

 

This is not directed at any one member.

I alone carry the burden of moderating these forums and I can only apologize for allowing this to progress including my own participation. Upon further thought, I have decided that this topic needs to be locked. This is not a reflection of my views and opinions rather an action required to maintain the goal I set forth when I created this web site and forum and the level of integrity I hold myself to. I think we have something great here at the DTS and I don't want to screw it up over politics. Comments and questions may be directly addressed by sending a private message directly to me.

 

Thank you for your understanding.