to cab off or not

[Brad Clayton]

I read a post that asked what the deal was with cab off and got some thoughts together. I know this is sometimes talked to death and repetitive, but....

 

To cab off or not to cab off, that is the question!

 

I am a cab off kind of guy. I have been pulling cabs every since Ford redesigned the F-150 in 1997. This is when the idea of tucking the motor under the cowl took off like wild fire. If you like to pull cabs and have never done a 150, then wait til you get one with a stick shift and a popped motor, it will convince you. Also, Ford’s modular motors are very susceptible to heat. Down South, these engines bake themselves to death. The first thing to go is the valve stem seals. There again think about the last time you did a valve cover gasket or even tried to rethread the number 4 spark plug hole. Cab off is enough said when resealing valves comes up.

 

When I talk to people about the decision of removing a cab or not, I mention the idea of pros and cons. I personally like to explore all the options that are out there. This helps me make a decision on the best option that is available to me on future jobs. I have removed every diesel engine available to current in a light duty Ford pickup, out of the chassis the old fashioned way. I have removed all configurable cabs from Fords current chassis’. The 6.4 is like building a pyramid. If you forget a building block on the bottom and get to the top……..well you know. By removing the cab on a 6.4, you cut down on the chances of build up mistakes.

 

Now that I know what is involved, I can make an informed decision when a truck comes in with special circumstances. Let’s look at a 6.0L. Vehicle comes in and needs a bedplate reseal. Let’s say the motor is in mint shape and has every possible updated part available. Now let’s say that you have the Ford engine stand with the gear reduction crank handle and the works. My first option would be to pull the cab. With the cab out of the way, I can leave the engine completely intact. I have a spreader bar set up and can lift the motor out of the chassis and onto the stand in one fail swoop. This would allow me to flip the engine over do what I got to do, flip it back over and put it back in the chassis. Now let’s say there is some wiring running out of the cab, or worse, hydraulic hoses. This will complicate things to say the least. It is a major deterrent on my end and I usually opt to leave the cab on. If it’s head gaskets, I think on it a little more. Unfortunately, cab on engine removal still requires a lot of body removal parts, and you have to disturb the engine. The turbo and y-pipe have to come off. So now you’re still in the same spot with the engine on the stand. The decision has to be made on how you got there and what you’re willing to put up with. If you have ever pulled 7.3l engines, then you are quite comfortable with taking the front of the cab apart, pulling parts off the motor to clear removal, ect. If you like to leave the motor and radiator and all that intact, then you have to be comfortable dealing with power steering lines and possible brakes lines opened up, and realigning the cab into its correct position when done.

 

Basically, it all boils down to a matter of preference. I like to do what I am comfortable with, and what I can do the fastest. I can have a super cab 6.0l off in just at an hour. That leaves plenty of time to monkey with the motor. 6.4l is even faster, once you figure out how to beat the cage nuts. I actually like the new setup because you never have to open a door to get the body off. One factor I did not mention is space. I only have one bay. If a cab is off a truck and then down for parts, guess what? I am out of a bay to work in. This has also swayed my decision process. Is it better to remove with cab on and push the truck out, or is it better to cab off and then sit the cab back on and push the truck out. Jeesh, what a horrible thought to have to do that.

[DwayneGorniak]

You don't even have to try to convince me of cab removals. You gotta vote from me for Cab removal. Like that was ever a question about my opinion, right? I have been in the situation many times with 6.4L's especially where I am either waiting for parts or a damned warranty approval and i have to lower the cab and push the P.O.S. outside. Down with the cab, hook up the steering knuckel and drag her out. Done!

[Jonathan302]

Cab lift is the way for me to

 

But it's not always possible with the nice accesory some customer put on their truck

[Aaron]

Cab off, since I am a cripple.

 

Oh yeah, and Brad?

 

 

[dieseldoc]

I am fine with cab removals, if it makes the job easier and allows a better quality repair. HOWEVER if you are going to be a hack while you remove the cab, DONT DO IT. My last experience with a cab off was not a good one. I took one of our trucks to the dealer, for warranty head gaskets. The tech opted for a cab removal to do them. Unfortunately our trucks are a pain in the ass for you guys(crane, pto cables, extra wiring)

When the truck came back it had several things that were not correct. Things were routed incorrectly. Like hoses and wiring that were now rubbing on each other or other items that could cause a premature problem down the road. The clips were broken that hold the wiring above the turbo, other stuff was tied up with zip ties, that should have been bolted. This truck has a lot of miles and lots of people have been into it so it maybe wasnt all from the one tech. The biggest thing was that one of the cab mounting bolts was loose. The bolt would not turn but the washer was loose. I tied up the stuff that was hanging loose and rerouted a few others. I told the guy that drives the truck to take it back and have them fix the body bolt, dont know if he ever did or not. My advice is if you are going to do body off be sure to take pictures and notes so it goes back the way it came. I dont know maybe I am too picky about stuff like that but it is important.

[Keith Browning]

I don't know maybe I am too picky. . . .

 

Not at all and your post is on the money. It doesn't matter what you are working on, the vehicle should be 100% - correctly assembled, repaired, and as clean as presented. This sounds like a workmanship issue and it is the kind of story that makes us all in the industry look bad. I am sure it happens in the CAT world too, no? The devil is in the details. I would be embarrassed to turn in a completed job like that.

[cbriggs]

Quote:

My opinion on cab removal is if you pull the cab off I shouldnt be able to tell it was removed when I get the truck back. I dont know maybe I am too picky. . . .

That is my opinion / standards on every repair, but especially on cab removal. Most customers are sceptical of this method of repair to start with, no need to make them right...

[Bruce Amacker]

I feel this has nothing to do with cab removal, but the general quality of work in our industry. We've been down this road before at DTS- it's not what's being done, but who is doing it. Cab on, cab off, it doesn't matter- if the guy is a hack it's going to be a butcher job either way. This applies to dealership tech as well as indys- there's just way too many butchers in our field.

 

I have seen too many instances of hack work from both dealers and indys. I could argue that flat rate promotes hack work, but I won't go there.....

 

 

[dieseldoc]

Oh yeah hackery happens in the cat world as well. Unfortunately I am the one that typically has to pick up the pieces afterword. I am paid hourly, so it is not quite as bad for me. However the customer now has the impression that we dont give a shit about his truck, machine, whatever it happens to be. I care about my customers, however much a pain in the ass they may be sometimes, without them I dont get to eat and I have to live in a refrigerator box. That makes them very very important to me. Unfortunately it isnt the hack grease monkey that gets the bad name it is the whole dealer. When this guy tells his buddy's about what happened. He isnt going to say joe blow messed up my rig, he is going to say those morons at cat or ford wrecked my truck. That is my biggest pet peeve is guys that have the attitude "this is just a job, its not my machine, who cares". Oh well, they arent going to change, all a guy can do is the best he can and hope they take a few pointers from you along the way. I am not trying to say I am the best tech in the world and everyone should learn from me by any means. I have a lot to learn and you can always find ways to improve things. But you have to want to.

[Aaron]

How did they break the wiring harness holder over the turbocharger?

 

You dont even need to take the goddamn thing off to pull the cab?!

[mchan68]

How did they break the wiring harness holder over the turbocharger?

 

You dont even need to take the goddamn thing off to pull the cab?!

I agree. I don't give a rat's ass if there are some, who think I'm a "!?@#%!" for pulling cabs. For the record, I have done A LOT of heads/gaskets replacements on 4.6L/5.4L V8s of '98 to '00 model year vintages back when they were under warranty. And ALL those repairs were done CAB-ON. This was also BEFORE SLTS was revised to have you claim engine R and R to carry out the repair.

 

Having said that, to me it makes far more sense to pull the cab, if I'm into a truck where I'm either pulling the head(s) or the engine for whatever reason (unless we're talking about a 4.2L). To me, it makes for a far cleaner better quality repair in doing so. This means factory harnesses and components get routed back to their respective locations unmolested. As far as squeaks and rattles go, as long as the cab is properly aligned back to its original position and ALL bolts are fastened in STRAIGHT, this shouldn't be an issue.

 

As far as aftermarket equipment is concerned, if it interferes with cab removal, it is CUSTOMER PAY, end of discussion. Failing which, the job doesn't get done (at least not by me). If nothing else, at least my service manager stands behind me on this issue.

[Aaron]

If it's an 08 I have been successful in claiming M-time for any add on shit (PTO wiring, etc.) and got paid for it under warranty.

[mchan68]

If it's an 08 I have been successful in claiming M-time for any add on shit (PTO wiring, etc.) and got paid for it under warranty.

How much M-time are we talking here? How about the M-time for the cab bolt TSB? How much M-time do you guys claim for that one? Come to think of it, what the fuck is with all these TSBs that are out now as MT(TSB number) for labour times?

[Aaron]

Nope, claim the TSB for the bolts, then claim the customer equipment as MT to the causal part of the whole job.

[Mikill]

Originally Posted By: Aaron

If it's an 08 I have been successful in claiming M-time for any add on shit (PTO wiring, etc.) and got paid for it under warranty.

How much M-time are we talking here? How about the M-time for the cab bolt TSB? How much M-time do you guys claim for that one? Come to think of it, what the fuck is with all these TSBs that are out now as MT(TSB number) for labour times?

 

We were told one time that we couldn't claim m-time for spun cage nuts because if we followed the correct procedure the bolts will come out without spinning the cage nut. About three of us had m-time kicked back because of this.

 

I pretty much don't claim m-time for anything anymore. If I have to install a part that doesn't have a labor op I usually just claim the labor ops for whatever I have to remove to get to r/r the part.

[cbriggs]

Quote:

If it's an 08 I have been successful in claiming M-time for any add on shit (PTO wiring, etc.) and got paid for it under warranty.

Yeah, i mt'd around 2 hrs to modify an overcab tire holder, no questions asked.

[Keith Browning]

Three tips for using M-time:

[*]Use separate punch times for each M-time operation - punch onto a separate flag for removal of an item and off when done, repeat when reassembling

[*]Be descriptive and explain exactly what the M-time request is for. You should even mark your time flags with an "M" and write your request/write up neatly on the bottom of the repair order WHERE IT CAN EASILY BE SEEN.

[*]know when to say when - many dealers are high on M-time claims which is no surprise with all of the M-time TSB's. Claim it only if you REALLY need to. M-time is there for us to use and is anticipated with certain jobs such as cab off repairs for example.

In theory you shouldn't be charging a customer to disconnect or remove things to perform a warranty repair. Ford will pay to do so. It is the warranty policy nightmare we are currently experiencing you need to be concerned about. If you follow procedure and include supporting documentation you will be fine.

[Mikill]

Three tips for using M-time:

[*]Use separate punch times for each M-time operation - punch onto a separate flag for removal of an item and off when done, repeat when reassembling

[*]Be descriptive and explain exactly what the M-time request is for. You should even mark your time flags with an "M" and write your request/write up neatly on the bottom of the repair order WHERE IT CAN EASILY BE SEEN.

[*]know when to say when - many dealers are high on M-time claims which is no surprise with all of the M-time TSB's. Claim it only if you REALLY need to. M-time is there for us to use and is anticipated with certain jobs such as cab off repairs for example.

In theory you shouldn't be charging a customer to disconnect or remove things to perform a warranty repair. Ford will pay to do so. It is the warranty policy nightmare we are currently experiencing you need to be concerned about. If you follow procedure and include supporting documentation you will be fine.

 

 

I have been given those instructions since I started in this business. I follow everything the warranty clerk has told me to do since I started. All three of the warranty clerks I have had say I'm one of the best they have seen when it comes to documenting my diagnosis and repair procedures. I tend to write novels when it comes to warranty repairs because I try to cover everything and not give anyone a chance to hit me with the backflag but it still happens. I always rarely used m-time but when I did it wasn't much but still have to fight for it. I got tired of it and just stopped using it.

[Fordtechnician]

You are not to picky. You just got bit by a place that doesn't give a crap.