Can the dealer see a programmer?

[Keith Browning]

Here is a great pissing match over at the Diesel Stop ---> Can the dealer see a programmer?

 

The sad part is that unless the equipment is installed on the truck Ford will not deny the claim because YOU CAN'T PROVE IT.

 

Why?

 

Because Ford has never officially admitted, stated or taught us in training or any other way shape or form that this capability actually exists and or how to access it. I for one believe that PCM's over the years have had and do maintain some data that is telling to varying degrees... I was insructed once (unofficially) how to get into the PCM and determine whether the last tool to program the PCM was a Ford tool and which one was used but I never got that procedure to work. The only thing close to official intel I know of was when the 6.4L training started there was "talk" of a permanent non-erasable tattle-tale DTC that we could see in the dealership, but we never saw that happen.

 

We aren't stupid. There are usually many signs that point to the use of a non-OEM performance device has been used and every dealer service department is different in how they handle these situations. I know from my experience that Ford will not back me at all... unless the equipment is actually installed on the truck at the time of repair.

[DwayneGorniak]

This is such a frustrating topic, isn't it? You go to Ford Tech School all these years and get it pounded into your head that all this aftermarket performance shit is fraudulent and no way in hell are we supposed to warranty this shit. Here we are on the front lines battling this shit and never have any concrete support or back up. Kinda reminds me of the early wars when soldiers used to march toward each other and shoot at each other. It seems we are left to march all on our own to our own deaths. Fucking frustrating!

[Jim Warman]

I don't think that anyone at the dealer level can see into those little nooks and crannies that likely exist in any module - not without some directions, at least.

 

At various times, I have had Hotline instruct me to enter a (memory thing) "special functions" menu and then enter what was obviously a hexadecimal address into the IDS... Several lines of information would be presented and the Hotline respondent usually had an excellent grasp of what it was we were looking at.

 

Take a look at the computer you wrote this message on... a few mouse clicks and POOF - you have an "image" of your PCs programming... one you can return to later, if required.

 

Automotive modules have come a long way since the mid 80s... look at what we have now... It isn't enough to install a module and do a PMI... now we are looking at "parameter resets" - basically, we use the IDS to "introduce" Mr. PCM to Ms. ICM.

 

The debate over at the monkeyhouse will always rage on... not because any of it really matters. But because "honest" people will act in a fraudulent manner - and that, gentlemen, is a very, very sad comment on the state of modern society.

 

While I am in the mood for conjecture... I firmly believe that Ford could, in a heartbeat, proove to their own satisfaction, that a particular modification was the progenitor of a mechanical failure. But it would turn into the "test case from hell". If it went wrong or backfired, the company might never recover from the stigma. Are they better off letting the odd stinker through the system? Is any one manufacturer ready to be the leader in such a venture?

 

Remember this... You Yanks have to deal with Moss-Magnusson. In Canada, we have no such burden. Indeed, inspite of what Canucks see and believe, Canada accounts for only about 10% of Fords worldwide revenues. Would the existance of Moss-Magnusson precipitate a legal action... or would the lack of legislation make something more attractive?

 

Vehicle owners.... is one of the reasons we haven't seen a test case thus far because an owner that has had a warranty claim denied hasn't had the where-with-all to register a class action suit of find a law firm willing to battle the big boys?

 

I keep seeing vague references to the "VID Block"... vehicle identification data... in various documents... The PCM and the ICM are two of the most likely repositories of this info... with other modules likely capable and/or actually blessed with copies of this information. Look at newer vehicles... In the past, the PCM was the "gateway" module. These networks are moving away from that and we are starting to see other modules yasked with the "gateway" duties.

 

Can the dealer "see" a tuner? Not without help. Can Ford see a tuner? Ever tried OASIS Quick Start? What the heck is some of that light flashing all about (just before it deplays the VIN, the mileage, memory DTCs and whatever else)? The reason they aren't using this info (as far as we can see it not being used) is because they haven't gathered enough of it..... yet.

 

You can bet your first born.... when this info gets used.... it will be iron clad and incontravertable...

 

What worries me the most about this whole deal (the monkeyhouse) is that I really don't like doing business with people that will commit fraud...

[Jim Warman]

FWIW.... someone a lot like me ( only he's a Deutscher Schäferhund - honest ) replied to that thread...

 

He will likely get punted (again) for character substitution... unlike everyone else that substitute characters ( like ** *) instead of actually expressing themselves.

 

In retrospect... the last time that Ford chose to deny message board of my wit.... would I have been treated differently if I had uttered "Oh, Ralphie-poo... you are such a scoundrel" instead of what was to become my epitaph....?

 

[Keith Browning]

Grampy Jim for President!!!!

 

[Alex Bruene]

I recently contacted Ford over a vehicle that I had suspected had a programmer installed and removed prior to bringing it in for a coolant venting issue. I was told to have the customer authorize removal of the heads, and Ford wanted me to contact them when the heads were off and tell them about the number of breach points in the head gasket(s) and the spray pattern on the pistons. It didn't go any further, because the customer then sang like a bird and left.

[Aaron]

Keith -- You do know who Kodaman is.....right?

 

[Keith Browning]

Yes I do. He is Jim's dog.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Which one is the dog?

[Aaron]

Yes I do. He is Jim's dog.

Heh

 

Was just makin' sure.

 

Him and my dog was buddies when I was out there.

[vloney]

I posted this in one of them in 06.....

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Let me set this up first. Part of being a good tech in todays world, is not only repairing damaged or defective vehicles,but also finding out what caused the defect to begin with. Melted pistons, broken components, failed gaskets,etc. From the very start of the automotive repair business, this was a part of the repair process. Components fail for a reason, over-revving causes parts to fail in a specific manner, excessive heat, the same, overboosting,the same. When these signs are present, thats when you start looking.Overboosting,you check the vanes, check the vgt solenoid (yes, there are tests for this) and check the pcm and wires. Head gaskets,depending on the type of damage, where to start the search. Now, for those of you "Just remove the controller, they'll never know", here comes the funny-ironic part. You are always wanting to find the knowledgeable,experienced techs, but for that(removing the controller) to work, you have to find someone not smart enough to see whats happened, then trust him with major motor/trans work! I dont care who you are, thats funny!

__________________

[cbriggs]

Good one.

[sixturbosix]

I had a customer that was a real demanding asshole.This was during the time we had to have prior approval on egr coolers.The truck had a programmer and exhuast mods.Under modifications I put Banks Six Gun and Performance exhuast knowing they would deny the repair.10 minutes later I got an answer back of Approved for egr cooler replacement.I contacted hotline and asked why just to cover my ass and was told unless it was head gaskets with no egr cooler failure or catastrophic engine failure they were not denying the claims.They said it cost more in legal fees to prove the programmer caused the failure then it was worth.

[Jim Warman]

Originally Posted By: kodaman

Grampy Jim for President!!!!

 

Don't laugh... I've had a couple of people tell me I should run.... I'm just not sure if you Yanks are ready for somebody like me....

[Alex Bruene]

I stayed away from The Donkey House for as long as I could...

 

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f23/you-dont-have-pay-play-247076/

 

I can't help my self... It's like watching a slow motion train wreck!

[Aaron]

I currently have a 2008 F-350 in my bay.

 

It has chrome nuts holding the DPF to the DOC. Strange.

 

I look at some more...the tail pipe takes a gentle shove and the whole tailpipe, from the DPF back, falls off the DPF.

 

Things are very strange here.

 

And the DPF to DOC gasket is RUINED.

 

Something stinks like un-filtered diesel exhaust over here...

 

So after a little more inspection

 

It has turned out the catalytic converter is restricted on this truck. Causing my extremely high EBP.

 

The new catalytic converter, re-installed existing DPF, and gasket will remain on the truck. I made sure of that. Miller does make such a nice welder.

 

I just laid a nice little spot of weld on the studs coming out of the particulate filter, so the nuts will come most of the way off...but not ALL the way.

[Bruce Amacker]

I can see the cust now, under the truck going, "F*cker".

 

 

[mchan68]

I just laid a nice little spot of weld on the studs coming out of the particulate filter, so the nuts will come most of the way off...but not ALL the way.

You're bad!!!

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

Originally Posted By: kodaman

Grampy Jim for President!!!!

 

Don't laugh... I've had a couple of people tell me I should run.... I'm just not sure if you Yanks are ready for somebody like me....

 

Well........We have Obama I think would be the perfect person to bust some ass up on Capitol Hill.