MecGen Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Hi People I am having one of those weeks, I am in real need of some help from you techs out there. I am an ex-ford tech eeciv, eecv certified and powerstroke (dealer) trained, I am more experienced with the 7.3 but find my way around the newer models just fine. I am seriously busting a nut figuring out this one and would humbly ask help with this…truck 2004 E450 Cube 6.0 Powerstroke Torqueshift. 90000km. Situation as followed Truck came in with a “no reverse” complaint, I questioned the driver and confirmed a long engagement, 10 minutes of warm up before it goes into reverse. I asked to keep the truck outside overnight and I was there early in the AM to check it. The truck fired right up (-12 C ) with a very small shake to the motor. Minor miss. I noticed the speedo in PARK was floating between 20km and 80km and confirmed a dead fuel pedal, absolutely no response. I put it in reverse and absolutely no engagement, I put it in drive and no response, not even an effort. Codes as follows : P0715 input sensor, P0720 output sensor, P0791 intermediate sensor, P0272 #4, P0341 cam sensor, P0404 EGR. While it was warming up I did confirm the scanner reading at the VSS matched the cluster @80km, at this point I thought it was a harness problem so I did not go farther with the data stream, wish I would of checked the output, inter, and input sensors… After letting it idle to worm up, I shut down the motor and fired it back up, everything went back to normal (still a little long gear engagement but acceptable). I figured no big deal and gave it a once over in the shop. This what I thought, and way too many hours later this is what was done -Batteries checked but replaced the terminals at the batteries heavy corrosion, cleaned every ground (at motor also). Corrosion was everywhere, worst one I’ve seen (battery terminals). -Opened the trans harness and went wire by wire, checks good, later both harnesses to the trans was change because when I took the harness apart the wires were cooked together and although not skinned I was loosing 3 volts between ECM and trans. -Wiggled the main harness, no change, later me and my co-worker spent 6 hours disassembling the main harness, inch by inch. I took extra care to inspect the sore spots, EGR cooler bolt, FICM connectors and harness area, block heater area, drivers v/c area, and behind HPOP. Found 2 wires at ECM harness that chafed thru at wiper cowl (econoline) and a 12 volt power source wire chafed at the map sensor mount bolt. -Removed the FICM, checked the connectors and harness (FICM is new). -Full service trans, two filters, and 20 litres Ford SP -Checked alternator diodes (I’m thinking RF static) This is a compressed explanation, because the problem is intermittent, the repairs happened over days and I did so many test I can’t remember them all. At the first visit I cleared the codes and nothing has come back since although the problem showed up multiple times (cleared before above work). These are the symptoms that are throwing me off : -I managed once to catch the intermittent problem in action, this is what I did, I cut the OSS wire at the ecm while running, speedo stayed up, scanner still corresponded with speedo. -I pinned the throttle to the floor (no action) and waited for the “CE” light, it didn’t come on. If its in limp mode why does it not thro a code? -Next when its back to life a can manage, up a hill, under heavy load, get the trans to slip, at one point I let it slip really long, pulled over and still no codes, not even a slip code? As we speak the trans is a strait ass no go, forward or reverse I understand that I probably have two issues here, one in the transmission and one somewhere else (motor drivability) I am aware of the trans solenoids problems but I would really like to fix the electrical gremlins first, as the way I see it, if there is damage in the transmission it came from the other symptoms. Unfortunately I did not get the chance to read the data stream, accelerator pid, nor the 3 speed sensor on the trans when the problem was happening. I did get a chance to unplug the trans harness again when the speedo was moving with no change (after above work). I did some research, I have found issues concerning the ABS module, pedal, and cluster but nothing all at the same time.. Does anybody have experience with these components giving troubles like mine? I really need to stress the fact that Speedo, pedal, and trans all happen at the same time, and all symptoms goes away together except for my possible damaged trans. Yesterday I had the truck for the day, hooked all my scanner equipment and scopes on the trans sensors, and Vref. before firing up the truck and of course it didn’t show his ugly face, that’s when I decided to work on the main harness, everything was spot on till the customer showed up at 5:30pm to pick it up. Same problem…I was pissed and just went home. I hope my explanation is clear enough, and that I didn’t forget to mention anything, I have a headache. So to recap Intermittent – no forward, no reverse, speedo erratic, dead accel pedal, all at the same time. No Codes (I finally got a OSS code and a slip code at the very end) Transmission slips Truck starts fine even at -12c unplugged PS... I put the ECM and FICM in the freezer, cannot duplicate malfunction (happens more cold) I checked trans pressures and all is fine (problem not present of course) Please if anybody worked on a problem like this if you could be so kind and give me a heads-up, it would be much appreciated, before I blow a gasket. Sincerely Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 I've seen a similar concern twice on 6.0 pickups where a trans problem was actually causing no throttle response, almost like some kind of protection strategy - albeit too late. I have asked hotline about this and they had no idea about it. In my own research I found this in the pced which may explain which strategy is getting screwd by the slipping trans: Quote: AT: FICM Circuit Fuel Delivery Error Introduction AT: Pinpoint Tests -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Signal function The diesel engine power monitor (DEPM) strategy resides in the transmission control module (TCM) located inside the powertrain control module (PCM). The function of the DEPM is to monitor engine RPM when there is no power demand from the accelerator pedal position (APP) sensor. Under normal engine idle operation, the DEPM RPM value must always be higher than engine RPM. In the event that the engine RPM does exceed the DEPM limit, the DEPM will disable the crank and cam output signal sent by the PCM to the fuel injection control module (FICM). Whether this is what is getting confused or not, I still believe your best bet is to attack the transmission problem first. In both of the ones I saw do this I chased my tail trying to figure out the no throttle response, when actually that was a symptom, not the cause. As far as your speedo concern, I don't remember that, so quite possibly you're dealing with another concern too. The 04 Torqshift was notorious for reverse planetary problems that would fill the trans with metal and seize the solenoids, there was even a recall 04B24 on it for a while but is now expired. That just means Ford is done paying for a known problem. I've also seen the visctronic fan clutches short out and cause trans concerns, but usually they won't crank when that happens due to an inaccurate TR reading. It wouldn't hurt to unplug the fan clutch and try before you do anything else. Sounds like the tranny has to come apart anyway with as much as it has been slipping, you might as well start there. And don't forget to replace the cooler and flush the lines when you're done, and think really hard before reinstalling the old converter if you do find metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MecGen Posted January 16, 2010 Author Share Posted January 16, 2010 Thanx Jeff You know, my co-worker even talked about an unknown strategy, but the fact that the speedo even runs (kinda floats lazily)in park with the OSS (and the diff VSS) unpluged kinda pushed me into the electrical side of things. Whith this type of ball breaker, I try really hard not to get turned around looking for ghosts, but the speedo, pedal and trans all happened at the same time, got me stumped.I did read some techs were having problems with the ABS module causing stupidities in with the speedo. I can also try to cut the output from the ECM at time of fault (or check with a scope) I am concirned that I have a bum ECM (its grounded). I am really nervous that I pop a new transmission in it and it does the same thing. Thanx in advance all help is greatly appreciated. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 I also think you will find all of your symptoms are related but I believe this will end up being electrical. It used to be that even electronically controlled transmissions should and would still engage into forward or reverse with an electrical fault - not so with a torqshift. I have read this a few times now and I am still trying to get my head around it. To me it sounds like you have a basic electrical problem affecting one or more VPWR circuits. We have discovered that VSS signals can be corrupted by seemingly unrelated circuits. I also suspect that you are trying to solve all of your problems at once and are losing focus. May I suggest that you pick one item like the dead peddle or the transmission engagement. Once diagnosed you may likely find the root cause is creating your other concerns. By the way, welcome to the DTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MecGen Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 Hello I am contemplating my next move with this truck. For the accelerator pedal, I do not believe its a fault as per say but a calculated strategy response. I called my co-worker yesterday to discuss a few things (yes its a weekend, yes we are loosing sleep over it) and he had scoped the pedal sensors, Vref, grounds' and outputs at time of problem, everything normal. This would explain why it doesn't pop a code, usually these pedals will code if you breathe on them. For the transmission I plan on looking real hard at the Vref and signal returns, but this may pose another problem with strategies, will the ECM command the trans solinoids if it see's a fault (without coding)? As for the speedo I suspect this is the easiest gremlin to hunt down, speedo should not move in park, speedo should not move with input disconnected at the ECM, period. I am not at the shop, can someone confirm the logic path of calculating MPH, from memory its a strait line from the sensor to ECM back to the cluster...I'm thinking out loud here, if the ABS module has an internal problem, can that feedback through the cluster then back to the ECM? (no codes in ABS)? I know my post seem all over the place but its hard to put things in order when trying to recap over the last week. On top of that the first part of the week the customer needed his truck for work, so it came and went. We are two techs taking shifts on this. The truck will now stay put. Hypothetically how would you attack this problem, what inputs and outputs would you suggest for back probing? If its like before I have a very small window of opportunity to catch this, it can be a while before it acts up again. On a side note does anybody know the outcome of this one 2010 Milan Transmission Some of the same symtoms Thanx in advance Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MecGen Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Hi Guys Well it seems I got it fixed. After much head scratching, a sitdown with my co workers and the trany shop tech we decided to bite the bullet and change out the trans, torque and cooler and if the gremlins re appears I'll deal with it after. Swapped out the trans Monday (complete dropin), the boss took it home Tuesday, Fred took it Wednesday, and myself Thursday. Customer has now pick it up. So far so good, absolutely none of the symptoms reappeared, and they should have by now, time will tell. I still don't understand the relation between the trans and speedo floating (unplugged), but I have given enough of my life to this truck, so I will wait and see what happens next week. Very humbling experience. I want to take the time to thank the people that helped me with this. Regards Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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