THE Warranty Problem

[Keith Browning]

This is a subject that has been discussed to ad nauseum. The ongoing battle between manufacturers, dealers and vehicle owners concerning aftermarket performance modifications rages on. I was looking through the 2011 Diesel Engine Supplement and read this passage in BLACK AND WHITE.

 

Quote:

Some aftermarket products may cause severe engine/transmission and/or exhaust system damage; refer to the Warranty Guide for more information. Your vehicle’s powertrain control systems can detect and store information about vehicle modifications that increase horsepower and torque output such as whether or not performance-enhancing powertrain components commonly referred to as “performance chips” have been used. This information cannot be erased and will stay in the system’s memory even if the modification is removed. The information can be retrieved by Ford Motor Company, Ford of Canada, and service and repair facilities when servicing your vehicle. This information may be used to determine if repairs will be covered by warranty.

This statement again raises the same questions about OUR position.

[*]Will the engine control system actually detect and store modification detection.

.

[*]Will technicians in the dealerships be able to see the results of this detection and if so, how are we to handle these situations? I would like to see a written protocol.

.

[*]Will Ford FINALLY begin to take an official stance on this subject, define what the limitations are and ACTUALLY STAND BEHIND THEM?

We have seen similar verbiage printed in the Warranty Policy Manual, in service literature, Owner's Guides and even labels attached to the vehicles yet time and time again we see modifications and vehicle neglect and abuse damage vehicles. We have consumer laws to protect people from improper interpretation and application of the terms of the warranty however there is little to protect the manufacturers, dealerships and the technicians from fraudulent actions of the consumers. We may not be able to make decisions concerning the warranty on a customer's vehicle or engine however we certainly can decline to work on them, can we? I hate being lied to by deceitful customers however I also hate the feeling that the manufacturer will not take a solid position and stand behind their written warnings with any authority and consistency.

[Aaron]

General Motors now has a similar program.

 

Before ANY diesel repairs are made, the TECH II must be hooked up and data pulled out of a certain module address and sent to "the big house" to be analyzed before any warranty repairs are authorized. I think my GM buddy said it pays something like .2 or something, and he said it takes about 40 minutes to get what you need, and then another hour and a half to get approval.

 

From what I understand, most techs are able to see where the modified data is, as their TSB shows you what the stock programming looks like, and what the modified programming looks like. I can't locate the TSB offhand, but I will get it and paste it here. I am not 100% certain either, if this is just with trucks that currently have the programming installed, or trucks that HAVE been flashed, or whatever.

[Jim Warman]

It's not like we didn't expect this kind of shit.... and it is, eventually, going to be up to the legislators to curb some mods.

 

The only thing you can really expect in the near future is that somewhere, somehow... it will be you that gets thrown under the bus...

 

It is only a matter of time before "theoretical" mileage becomes a factor. This past week I have seen two with DPF concerns both displaying computed mileage (engine hours) at twice the displayed mileage - "I NEVER let my truck idle...".

 

Truth is a relative term, I suppose.

[DwayneGorniak]

They need to make this shit black and white and stand behind us on it. There should be absolutely no fucking reason techs get thrown under the bus in these situations. After all we are only doing what we are told to by our management. And this shit needs to fucking stop somewhere. If they handle this situation correctly, the techs will be allowed to make the proper calls that Ford is looking for. But Ford needs to grow a set of fucking balls and step up to the plate on this. This is a topic that always burns my ass.

[Jim Warman]

 

It appears that Ford may just be stepping up to the plate. There is no way of knowing for sure until push becomes shove...

 

Ford needs to grow some balls? In the world we live in?

 

We're asking Ford to do something we wont... We bitch about lift kits... if you get an RO next week that says "install lift kit".. what are you going to do... What CAN you do?

 

Over 95% of the worlds time is spent deflecting the blame... the rest of us are busy getting kicked off of various forums for actually having (or pretending to) 'nads.

 

Kyle often tells me I should "lead by example".. I try to do that very thing... and it doesn't fucking work.

 

For any concept to work, we all need to be on the same team.... If Ford is going to grow some 'nads... we need to be more than just along for the ride...

 

blueovaltech.com - let's stand up and be counted.

[DwayneGorniak]

We are asking Ford to do something we won't? Speak for yourself.

 

Just because you won't do it doesn't mean that any of the rest of us won't. It sounds like you are implying that it's O.K. to preach the gospel online but when you go to work and get paid by a pimp, it's O.K to suddenly become a cheap whore because that's who signs your paycheck. And just because some of us may work and get paid by Pimps or whores themselves doesn't mean that we all agree with it. Sure there are some folks out there that love be cheap whores but there are also others who don't.

[Keith Browning]

blueovaltech.com - let's stand up and be counted.

[Keith Browning]

blueovaltech.com - let's stand up and be counted.

With all due respect Jim THAT approach is going to deepen the divide between Ford and the technician body and has NOTHING to do with Ford Motor Company's warranty policy concerning aftermarket performance devices and the consumer. A class-action lawsuit against Ford concerning labor times in and of itself is ludicrous when you consider that the majority of techs are doing the minimum to get by finding ways to get around procedures and policy only to make matters worse for themselves and the rest of us.

 

To redirect us back to the topic:

 

Originally Posted By: Jim Warman

For any concept to work, we all need to be on the same team.... If Ford is going to grow some 'nads... we need to be more than just along for the ride...

 

The first quote is counter productive to this idea. If the technician body is to be a part of this then we need to make it known that we see the problem and want to see a change and be willing to take part in that change and not wasting time and energy fighting our partner in fighting this menacing issue. If your dealer participates in modifying trucks, simply and politely remind them of the implications. Same goes for customers. When you come across aftermarket devices remember to document what you observe. In all of those forms we have to fill out and submit on-line there are check boxes to indicate vehicle abuse, modifications and on some there are text fields to type in comments. USE THEM.

 

Have you changed? For heavens sake Jim, you are one of the people I have a lot of respect for BECAUSE you speak your mind and stand for integrity and doing what is right. Leading by example is perhaps one of the most positive ways of encouraging integrity so please don't stop. Again, with all due respect, being a little more tactful while participating in forums would be a start as you can't have any impact at all if you can't be heard by the very people you need to have an open dialog with.

[Aaron]

I like how the X hours = 1 mile equation changes almost every time I ask about it.

 

Used to be 35 miles, then 33, then 30, now it's 25 = 1 hour.

[vloney]

I've often thought there was a boardroom somewhere that deals were being made. "You pay us so much money, then we wont go after modifications until our repairs go over x amount" (hell, navistar was picking up part of the tab), Now, Ford is producing their own engine, and they cant afford many repairs.

[Jim Warman]

Yeah... I guess I was a little over the top there... I do apologize to anyone I may have offended...

 

At the same time, all of us are engaged in that age old ritual of "taking one for the team". Ford is bound by the constraints of Moss Magnusson in the US... we don't need that since Canada has traditionally been a hotbed of liberalism...

 

Every last one of us has been an "enabler"... there are times we've "looked the other way" to appease a customer... stayed late.... taken a shortcut... this is part of the human condition... And Ford is no different.

 

Does anyone believe that there is a roomful of guys in Armani suits sitting around saying "yeah, we're gonna let them hillbillies ram it up our collective ass"? Of course not. Fords hands are very nearly tied. If they deny a warranty claim directly to the customer, they need to be sure they have incontrovertable proof that an alteration was THE CAUSE of the failure.

 

So... lets have a brief synopsis of how this system works.... Ford is busy trying ton lay the burden and the blame on the dealership... the techs and SAs are the folks in the trenches and we are the ones that will get our hands dirty and shit on our shoulders. In return, we are busy laying the burden and the blame on FMC. It's part of the human condition...

 

And why does the system function this way? Because, when it comes to laying the burden and the blame on the customer, we often don't have a fucking leg to stand on. Not us - not Ford.

 

Let's say you have, in front of you, a chipped 6.0 with blown head gaskets.... can anyone state without a shred of doubt, that the chip is the reason for the head gasket failure?

 

Now Ford has come out and admitted something we all suspected for some time... But we still don't know what information may or may not be recorded... we don't know if any events will be recorded (freeze frame data? freeze frame data on steroids?). In itself, this is a pretty ballsy move...

 

Does anyone recall.... several years ago, it came to light that the restraints control module could record up to two events (non deployment, deployment and/or secondary). In the US, there was a great hue and cry about invasion of privacy and fears that we were on the verge of entering a police state... people would be thrown in jail on what the RCM might offer.

 

Now... GM has OnStar and Ford has 911.... If you have an airbag deployment, your car "phones home" giving your location and the whole nine yards. Strangely, the "right to privacy" faction is pretty much silent about this...

 

How many have tried "OASIS Quick Start"? I don't think you even need IDS to be running on your laptop... (note to self... try this). Plug in the VCM, go to inFord and magic happens... right down to the kilometers on the odo. FWIW, has anyone noticed that the PCM is no longer the "gateway". Somew newer vehicles seem to be favouring the APIM as the gateway module and now all we are seeing for networks is the HS CAN and the MS CAN.

 

Are we on a path to information stored in modules that will prove for once and for all that an alteration did or did not precipitate a failure? Are we on a path that will have any alterations render a truck undrivable due to software modifications (think of this from ALL the angles...).

 

Many years ago, I had a friend that was a locomotive engineer for Canadian National Railways... we've lost touch over the years but I was always inquisitive and learned quite a bit about railway operations. Even back in the 70s, CNR locomotives had "flight recorders". Few parameters were recorded (from what I was told) since few parameters were available... reverser position, throttle notch (North American locos have 8 throttle 'notches' or positions), brake air pressure and speed. Bill (he wore a liesure suit to work and we would call him the "Polish Prince") was accused of speeding on a railway spur outside of Edmonton. Turned out he was doing something like 37 mph on a 35 mph track. Anyway, about a month after the incident, they downloaded his locomotive - FWIW, this appears to be the cause for a great deal of shame. Having your locomotive downloaded is much like being accused of molesting small, fur bearing mammals in the privacy of your basement. As it stands, it matters not what amount of info is collected... all you need is the right info (in Bills case, that piffling 2 mph nearly cost him his job).

 

As usual, I digress...

 

Getting back to the information that Ford may or may not be gathering... How much will actually be usable? Both the US and Canada have as a basic premise of freedom the fact that we cannot incriminate ourselves... In Britain, Pete Townshend was busted for what he had on his PC... could someone in North America be penalized for what he has in his PCM? Will the right to privacy people step in?

 

Nav systems are becoming the latest status symbol... could anyone imagine being implicated in a criminal activity based on Nav system memory? Cheating on your momma? Imagine losing your truck (and most everything else) because your truck finked you out.

 

Moral of the story... be careful of what you wish for.... you just might get it.

 

I try very hard to hold my head high and live by some lofty ideals... I look around at the world I live in and I see

 

"I really fucked him over"...

 

"I got paid ten hours for 45 minutes of work"..

 

and

 

Once again... sorry if I ruffled any feathers... but I will be the first one to tell you that I am an asshole. And for that, I make no excuses.

[Aaron]

"I got paid ten hours for 45 minutes of work"..

 

I am beginning to see more of I got paid 45 minutes for 10 hours of work.

 

DO NOT CLAIM WITH ANY OTHER LABOR OPERATIONS

 

DO NOT CLAIM OPCODE XX WITH OPCODE YY

 

TSB pays 3 hours. SLTS operation codes pays 6.3.

 

*sigh*

[DwayneGorniak]

Isn't that the freakin truth?

[Adam_Dodson]

Heres another thing...how are we supposed to write on the RO that the customer has a "chip" if we are going to get in trouble for it. I can see it already. We would get crapped on by the SM because the customer is a "good customer" and he bought the truck here blah blah. Our Boss is also in Sales so I couldnt see this going over to well. We cant say nothin without approval.

[DwayneGorniak]

Exactly. This happens everywhere. And this is one of the huge reasons this topic burns my ass. We go to school and get preached to about what is right and what is wrong. We all damned well know what is right and what is wrong. But when your paycheck is signed by a "Salesman" controlled industry, we all know how important honesty is. For us technicians, our hands are tied. This is where we need Ford to back us up and make this shit black and white. Right now all this gray shit is literally for the shits. This is why we need we an IDS system that automatically reports the proper info to the proper people. It would have to be a system that would force everyone to be honest. And as scary as that theory is, we're almost there from what I can tell. And if there would not have been so much greed and dishonesty in all these past years, we wouldn't be here today talking about this shit. It has gotten to the point where all the dishonest people have brought this upon themselves. And it's blatant obvious that Ford knows this. What really suck is that I'm not sure if Ford knows who is all on the same page as them because there are completely dishonest techs out there as well who add even more to this big ass nightmare.

[Tony302600]

What you guys need to remember is that, there will ALWAYS be a slow dealer willing to do ANYTHING for ANY customer regardless of policy just to work in the door. When you need to feed your children and you're book time...you don't give a shit about anything but making money. Now in this economy you're going to have more people bending the rules because they're scared to lose the customer. If the customer say's, "fuck it, ill go down the road because they may do it." then that's money out of your pocket.

[joshbuys]

I personally DON'T bend the rules, and I WON'T ever bend the rules, last week my SM told me to cover injectors in a truck that had this fuel filter - gelled fuel - picture was taken about 3 hours after pulling filter and having sit on bench in shop.

 

 

Told SM I would be happy to replace under warranty if Ford, knowing the truck was gelled, said to. After a little argument with the SM he told me to submit my findings and let the cards fall where they may. Ford approved the claim, and the SM appologized to me the following day.....MY INTEGRITY is infinitely more important to me than my paycheck!!!!

[Keith Browning]

Nice pic of a waxed filter but that thumb musta hurt at one time... and eeeew!

[cbriggs]

Quote:

If the customer say's, "fuck it, ill go down the road because they may do it."

Thats why we need to fill out a warranty status change form when we come across something. Then they can go down the road to wherever, but it wont get them anywhere.

[Aaron]

Thanks for the picture of your thumb!

[joshbuys]

Yeah....it hurt pretty good once upon a time....then just as it was starting to feel better, I smacked it again....started to feel good again, so hopefully.....it'll stay that way for a while

[GregH]

We maintain a position as a third party - a facilitator between the customer and Ford. Analyze the vehicle objectively, write it up without prejudice, and let Ford make the call.

 

The blame game - We do play that game, and we play it well. The customer's impression is that we are scrapping for the home team, and are trying our best to get Ford to cover a questionable repair without altering the facts. We don't give the customer the idea that Ford is some big, bad company who will do anything to screw the customer - we simply point out that they are the one's paying the bill and they need to make an informed decision. These customers will need to replace their vehicles at some point, and we'd like them to choose Ford again...

 

Now, when Ford comes back with an approval, then we look like the good guys. We come off as the guys who convinced Ford that this questionable repair should be covered.

 

I will never make the mistake again of steering the customer in the direction of "this repair won't be covered" because he's got some super mega diablo hyper loony program - only to have Ford come back with approval. We looked like the jackasses that were trying to get the customer's warrany denied and Ford stepped in to save the customer from another unscrupulous dealer. Screw that...

 

In all honesty, Ford has only declined a handfull of repairs. And those denials were reversed with an appeal... Or at least a PO5....

 

As for warranty times, streamlined diagnosis, TSB labor ops that cannot be used with any other operation, and other bull - I don't see that it has made much of a difference in my bottom line. For the most part, and I am shrugging into my asbestos suit as I type this, warranty labor times are fair.

 

I'm 80% warranty, and 20% CP. I average 50 hours per week, and my timecard shows me spending 45 hours a week at work. I'm paid above industry average in my area, and have the credentials to prove I deserve it. I've been averaging 50 hours for the past 10 years. Sure I have a bad week every now and then. Last week I turned 37 hours. But, thank goodness, there was a run for about four weeks at Christmas where I averaged 65 hours...

 

My spouse has perfume, my kid's got shoes, and my mortgage gets paid every month. I'm not going to quibble about a lost hour or two - this pendulum swings both ways. Does it really take 6.1 hours to R&I a crew cab?

 

Have you lost money? Have your average hours been dropping? If you can't live with the deal you have, polish your resume and print out your ASE records....

 

Suck it up Buttercups, this is the path we chose!

[GregH]

I was looking through the 2011 Diesel Engine Supplement and read this passage in BLACK AND WHITE.

 

Quote:

Your vehicle’s powertrain control systems can detect and store information about vehicle modifications. This information cannot be erased and will stay in the system’s memory even if the modification is removed. This information may be used to determine if repairs will be covered by warranty.

This statement again raises the same questions about OUR position.

[*]Will the engine control system actually detect and store modification detection.

.

[*]Will technicians in the dealerships be able to see the results of this detection and if so, how are we to handle these situations? I would like to see a written protocol.

.

[*]Will Ford FINALLY begin to take an official stance on this subject, define what the limitations are and ACTUALLY STAND BEHIND THEM?

We may not be able to make decisions concerning the warranty on a customer's vehicle or engine however we certainly can decline to work on them, can we? I hate being lied to by deceitful customers however I also hate the feeling that the manufacturer will not take a solid position and stand behind their written warnings with any authority and consistency.

Thought I would give my own opinion on the original questions....

 

I am quite certain that there is information stored in the PCM and other modules that cannot be erased, or at least erased with the tools we have. And because I'm a little paranoid I would expect this information is quite a bit more comprehensive than we think.

 

I was talking with an FSE a few years back on a transmission concern. He related a story about how he was assisting another engineer on a transmission concern in the field and the other engineer hooked up his own equipment to the vehicle. The other engineer accessed a ream of data showing parameters on every single shiftpoint the vehicle had ever made - from pulling off the assembly line up until it drove into the service bay 120,000 miles later.

 

I related that story on another forum, and a self-proclaimed former Ford transmission engineer called bullshit on me - at least it was through a PM.. He said no data of this sort has ever been stored...

 

I suspect that the truth is somewhere in between.

 

The capability of PCM's has been increasing ever since we started using computer control... Who's to say that these modules aren't capable of this and more these days?

 

So, the PCM can surely detect some modifications. Is this transmitted to Ford? Yes. Without a doubt. You've all seen the fact that as soon as the IDS starts to recognize the vehicle, the network traffic between the IDS and your wireless router starts up... The IDS is telling on you. What exactly is the IDS talking about? I would think that it is sending all the data that is shown on the log screen - vehicle identification data, module part numbers and strategies, continuous codes, and freeze frame data.

 

How long do you think it will be before whoever recieves this data at Ford starts comparing notes with the ACES people? We'll start getting back warranty RO's with denials saying things like "the codes stated in ACES do not match codes retreieved during diagnosis."

 

If there is specific data to be manually retrieved concerning modifications, I would think we would be able to see it. Maybe not all of it, and maybe in a dumbed down format, but we should be able to see something.

 

As for the official stance, and the steadfastness of Ford, it will always be driven by the dollar. They can say and print anything they want. It will be a deterrant to some people. But there will be others who will try to get their modified trucks covered, and for those people it will be a simple cost/benefit analysis. Is it cheaper to fight the customer or just cover the damned truck. And don't think they'll forget that if they fight the customer, they will lose the customer and all their friends - whether Ford covers the truck in the end or not.

 

Nothing has changed. Ford is still in the information gathering stage. I suspect they will be there for a long time. However, paper is cheap, and threats of warranty denial will deter some customers. This alone will save Ford money...

 

In response to Jim's repeated comparisons between our industry and the oldest industry - as far as modifications it is black and white - does it meet EPA regulations? So far, I have only had one customer out of the many who have asked me for EGR delete kits pursue having the kit put on at another shop. That is money I lost, but there was another diesel waiting in the parking lot....

[DamageINC]

We maintain a position as a third party - a facilitator between the customer and Ford. Analyze the vehicle objectively, write it up without prejudice, and let Ford make the call.

 

The blame game - We do play that game, and we play it well. The customer's impression is that we are scrapping for the home team, and are trying our best to get Ford to cover a questionable repair without altering the facts. We don't give the customer the idea that Ford is some big, bad company who will do anything to screw the customer - we simply point out that they are the one's paying the bill and they need to make an informed decision. These customers will need to replace their vehicles at some point, and we'd like them to choose Ford again...

 

Now, when Ford comes back with an approval, then we look like the good guys. We come off as the guys who convinced Ford that this questionable repair should be covered.

 

I will never make the mistake again of steering the customer in the direction of "this repair won't be covered" because he's got some super mega diablo hyper loony program - only to have Ford come back with approval. We looked like the jackasses that were trying to get the customer's warrany denied and Ford stepped in to save the customer from another unscrupulous dealer. Screw that...

 

In all honesty, Ford has only declined a handfull of repairs. And those denials were reversed with an appeal... Or at least a PO5....

 

As for warranty times, streamlined diagnosis, TSB labor ops that cannot be used with any other operation, and other bull - I don't see that it has made much of a difference in my bottom line. For the most part, and I am shrugging into my asbestos suit as I type this, warranty labor times are fair.

 

I'm 80% warranty, and 20% CP. I average 50 hours per week, and my timecard shows me spending 45 hours a week at work. I'm paid above industry average in my area, and have the credentials to prove I deserve it. I've been averaging 50 hours for the past 10 years. Sure I have a bad week every now and then. Last week I turned 37 hours. But, thank goodness, there was a run for about four weeks at Christmas where I averaged 65 hours...

 

My spouse has perfume, my kid's got shoes, and my mortgage gets paid every month. I'm not going to quibble about a lost hour or two - this pendulum swings both ways. Does it really take 6.1 hours to R&I a crew cab?

 

Have you lost money? Have your average hours been dropping? If you can't live with the deal you have, polish your resume and print out your ASE records....

 

Originally Posted By: Keith Browning

Suck it up Buttercups, this is the path we chose!

 

 

It sounds to me like you have a dealership that is somehow getting paid all the labor ops they should be getting paid for, however. I just paid a visit to my old shop, where there is now only 1 diesel tech since I no longer work there. He is very bright, fast, accurate, a hard worker, rarely ever has comebacks, and BUSY all day long. And he struggles to hit 40 hours every week. He writes up good, legt stories, claims labor ops, DOES NOT lie or bullshit, and by the time he's paid, there are hours missing from each and every diesel RO he finishes. The fight to keep our the 126 numbers pretty has absolutely killed the diesel teams in our area. There is so much that I miss about my old dealership but the bullshit that he's dealing with is definitely NOT one of them. They 'bypass' diag, almost entirely, unless it's something really fucked up. He just got paid 20.xx hours for a BRANCH TUBE on a shuttle E-van with auxilary AC lines and heater lines and all sorts of crap. Retarded.