2003 E-550 P1212

[mchan68]

Hi gents. My parts manager is hounding me on this one now too. I've been too busy at work this last couple of weeks to take on any more BS jobs, so here it goes.

 

Apparently, our parts department sold this shop 6007 drop-in engine assembly for a bus. Ever since installation, apparently the MIL illuminates and sets a P1212. No driveability issues, just the MIL. Apparently, it only sets at speeds over 100km/h (62mph). I told the parts manager to tell them to monitor the ICP volts PID at KOEO. I don't quite remember what the spec is. Is there anything else I should be telling them to do? This thing is too long to bring to our shop, and quite frankly, I don't feel like doing any warranty on any job that someone else did retail.

[Bruce Amacker]

ICPV should be .17-.24 KOEO, this applies to all HEUI engines. I'm surprised it's not giving a hard start complaint with that code like most will. I'd have them check the reservoir after it sits overnight or over a weekend and verify it's full. Have them check IPR at a hot idle, it should be 9-11%. If all of this is fine, have them momentarily ground the IPR return while it's idling and verify the HPOP will make about 4000PSI.

 

It actually sounds to me like it's a bad HPOP and the code is a 1211, not 1212. I never saw a 1212 set at speed. You could also go for a RT graphing IPR and ICP at WOT and cruising at 65mph. If IPR goes real high (85ish) at WOT and ICP flattens out it could be an indicator. I have seen IPR go to 80ish on a "good" truck at WOT but I don't like seeing it that high.

 

Checking LPOP pressure should be mandatory on the highway too, verifying the HPOP isn't starving.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

PS You definitely should be paid retail for the repair and who cares whose wallet it is.

[GregKneupper]

This does seem strange that it sets a 1212 at highway speed. The code desciption is basically low icp while cranking. I would agree with Bruce that it would seem that this truck should have a hard start problem. It would take a while for a 7.3 to even set a code for low icp while cranking. If it did happen to have a p1211 like Bruce said I would be checking fuel pressure on it. Have seen plenty of 7.3 liters with a 1211 and have a clogged fuel pickup tube and a damaged fuel pump.

[OHNO60]

Think your right Bruce. Had a HPOP start to leak pressure at certain spots in its shaft rotation when warm. Mine threw the 1212 on heavy accel onto an on ramp to highway. Did remember warming engine to operating temp, disabling idm relay and watching icp while cranking. Had the icp go from 200 to about 800 or so. Ended up being HPP and never gave me a hard start complaint.

[Bruce Amacker]

Think your right Bruce. Had a HPOP start to leak pressure at certain spots in its shaft rotation when warm. Mine threw the 1212 on heavy accel onto an on ramp to highway.

 

Hmm, that's odd. I don't remember seeing this problem before.

 

 

Did remember warming engine to operating temp, disabling idm relay and watching icp while cranking. Had the icp go from 200 to about 800 or so. Ended up being HPP and never gave me a hard start complaint.

It should build much more than 800psi cranking, most go to 1500 or 1.5v+. That is a bad pump.

 

Have fun!

 

[mchan68]

Okay, they finally brought this piece of shit to us. I scanned it. And yes, it IS P1211. I was granted permission to drive this vehicle home for the night with IDS connected (due to the fact the MIL only illuminates when highway speeds are reached). After running a self-test I erased the DTC, and made my merry way home with the vehicle, and as I entered the freeway on-ramp the MIL illuminated. As I glanced over my at my PIDs, I did happen to notice IPR duty cycle up at 64 and change %. Once up to highway speeds between 100 to 120 km/h (that's about 62 to 70 mph for you U.S. folks), I noticed ICP hovering around 2300 or so psi while IPR duty cycle would hover between 25 to 50 % under various throttle inputs. Intermittently, they would increase to around 64 and change when under WOT acceleration. After I exitted the freeway, I did notice IPR duty cycle at a steady 8.98% at idle (EOT at 198*F). ICP psi PIDs (and there are two of them) would fluctuate around 470 or so. The only thing I will say though, is this thing is GUTLESS. Off the line city acceleration is "adequate", but at highway speeds it SUCKS (maybe I'm too used to 6.0L/6.4L trucks, or it's unique to E-550 trucks being it was my first time behind the wheel of one). At about 80 km/h (about 50 mph), you floor it and this thing will take decades to accelerate to 110 or 120 km/h (around 70 to 75 mph). Looking through pinpoint tests KE I notice there are two different fuel pressure specs listed. I tend to believe the 45psi MINIMUM spec at idle and 45 to 80 under WOT full load. Revving the engine to redline for three minutes, ICP never exceeds 1500psi which puts it well below the 1800 limit. But, what I did notice was the absence of a spec for high pressure oil pump output with both high pressure oil lines removed and the pump dead-headed. Is there a spec for this? Also, there seems to be two ICP psi PIDs on these. Is there a reason for this? At KOEO, I get ICP volts at 0.24 and one ICP psi PID reads 0, but the other reads about 10?

 

Vehicle is a 2003 E-550 with 372,000 kms. (about 250,000 miles) that just had a new drop-in 6007 engine replaced a couple weeks ago.

[Jim Warman]

Don't forget a chipped 7.3 can start to run out of high pressure oil when pushed hard... that should be easy enough to check. Just for shits and grins, even though you don't seem to have a running concern, I'd likely check to make sure I don't have an IPR coil flopping around...

 

As for gutless... what does it make for boost?

 

Lastly, I don't think deadheading a pump like this would be very good for the pump..

 

Just out of curiosity, was this a short block, long block or complete?

[Aaron]

Where did you park it, Mike?

[Buddy_M]

It shouldn't hurt to deadhead the pump, since that is how heads are isolated and the pump isolated with the block off tools to check for ICP leaks. There is a pressure relief valve located in the pump so no damage should occur to it, and IIRC, it pops off in the 3000-3500psi range when I have deadheaded pumps. With where the IPR is bouncing around so high at have you checked base oil pressure to confirm the HPOP isn't starving and ramping up IPR to maintain oil pressure?

 

Buddy

[Bruce Amacker]

Your numbers all seem in line, make sure FP stays up at full load and deadhead the pump, I usually see 4000+ on a good pump. IH will give you this test over the phone, but not in print for liability purposes. 9 times out of ten when it sets this code at speed it's a bad pump. I can't remember it ever being anything else. Ditto on checking base LPOP, too.

 

Good Luck!

 

[mchan68]

Thanks for the info guys. Due to the physical size of this vehicle, it is impossible for me to bring into the shop to do further testing on. The parts manager asks me, "so what do I TELL them to replace?" I just looked at him and said, "look, they obviously want this truck fixed, so they need to follow the pinpoint tests that I printed off for them". I even loaned out my block-off tools for them, if they want to go through with it. I'd be leaning more toward the IPR according to what I saw in the pinpoint test, since I did notice the IPR duty cycle reaching up close to 65% a couple of times. But oh well, I'll leave it up to them.

[mchan68]

Where did you park it, Mike?

In the driveway, with the bumper about less than an 1/8" from touching the garage door handle, and the rear of the bumper overhanging half of the sidewalk. The roof of the cab was less than an inch from touching under the balcony.

[Aaron]

LOL

 

You didnt get a ticket for blocking the sidewalk?

[mchan68]

LOL

 

You didnt get a ticket for blocking the sidewalk?

NOPE.

[Mbl35]

How is the harness condition? I've had drivability concerns on 7.3 with and without dtc's with oil contaminated harnesses, the oil leaks through icp and gets through the pins and into the wireing. But usually the symptom would be a hard start, stalling to crank no start after stall engine warm. But with bad pickup from a cruising speed it sounds like those 2 little filters in the sending unit could be clogged.

[Aaron]

But with bad pickup from a cruising speed it sounds like those 2 little filters in the sending unit could be clogged.

In my experience, when these filters are clogged, after driving it for an extended period (I've been to Mike's house, and I would think he lives about 40km from his shop, although I am not exactly sure a hundred percent where his shop is in T.O.) after that much of a drive, I'd expect the fucker would hardly even run, depending on exactly HOW clogged the screens are. The last one I had wouldn't go 6km without going down the shitter for power. I mean, 15mph, MAX, with my foot on the bellhousing.

[GregKneupper]

Check fuel pressure and inlet restriction. Low fuel pressure will cause a p1211.

[Jim Warman]

IH will give you this test over the phone, but not in print for liability purposes.

They wont put it in writing because of liability concerns?

 

I stand by my statement... deadheading a positive displacement pump can't be good for the pump.

 

As I recall.... (always a dangerous manouever), the IDS/WDS/NGS will not allow us to duty cycle the IPR above 65%... kind of a built in pressure regulator of sorts... But most of us would just as likely stab an old 7.3 injector connector into the IPR and give it 100% duty cycle... Where is our pressure relief protection now?

 

I can't (seriously folks) remember deadheading one of these pumps... though it remains as a distinct probablity... however, I would have done it using an appropriate scan tool rather than a jumper on the IPR.

 

There are two things to consider when we perform any test... first is the desired result... the second is the repercussions of our test method... A dry mechanical compression test is information.... a wet AND dry mechanical compression test is more information... A proper leakdown test adds to our knowledge.. a crankcase pressure test is a non-intrusive, easily performed early stage test... ALL of them tell us something about cylinder sealing... none of them tell us everything about cylinder sealing.

 

.... P1211 and chips go hand in hand..

 

Sorry Bruce... we have a different experience is all I can guess... One thing I can tell you is that the public venues feature guys that scream "big oil" - something that I have seen that works with the "I have money - I want to play" crowd.

[Bruce Amacker]

Originally Posted By: Bruce Amacker

IH will give you this test over the phone, but not in print for liability purposes.

They wont put it in writing because of liability concerns?

 

I stand by my statement... deadheading a positive displacement pump can't be good for the pump.

 

I agree, but sometimes you have to do an invasive test. You've NEVER done an invasive test? I doubt any of us could say that truthfully. And, if IH Tech Support OK's it, that gives it a little credibility.

 

As I recall.... (always a dangerous maneuver), the IDS/WDS/NGS will not allow us to duty cycle the IPR above 65%...

 

I'm thinking it's more like 47% KOER?

 

kind of a built in pressure regulator of sorts... But most of us would just as likely stab an old 7.3 injector connector into the IPR and give it 100% duty cycle...

 

Or backprobe pin 2 at the PCM and ground it, which is much quicker.....

 

 

Where is our pressure relief protection now?

 

There's a pressure relief valve built into the pump that opens at 4000+ish. I posted IDS graphs and pics a couple of years ago when I did this, but I can't find them now.

 

I can't (seriously folks) remember deadheading one of these pumps... though it remains as a distinct probability...

 

OK Jim, how do you identify a weak pump- one that blows a low pressure code at WOT?

 

however, I would have done it using an appropriate scan tool rather than a jumper on the IPR.

 

 

Yea, but the scan tool restricts you so low it won't prove the pump good/bad.

 

There are two things to consider when we perform any test... first is the desired result... the second is the repercussions of our test method... A dry mechanical compression test is information.... a wet AND dry mechanical compression test is more information... A proper leakdown test adds to our knowledge.. a crankcase pressure test is a non-intrusive, easily performed early stage test... ALL of them tell us something about cylinder sealing... none of them tell us everything about cylinder sealing.

 

.... P1211 and chips go hand in hand..

 

Sorry Bruce... we have a different experience is all I can guess... One thing I can tell you is that the public venues feature guys that scream "big oil" - something that I have seen that works with the "I have money - I want to play" crowd.

WTF are you talking about? Or, what's doing the talking?

 

 

[Jeff Adema]

I think what Jim's trying to communicate is that no one test can be construed as being sufficient to elicit a complete diagnosis. That is why scientists prove/disprove over and over again in laboratory settings, using different tests and procedures. We can probably all relate to following an OEM test procedure or flow chart only to come up empty handed (replace ECM/known good part, etc).

But, if this bus has always been too heavy for the power output of that engine, and too slow for the demands of it's owners, then it is reasonable to inquire, as Jim alludes, if it has been chipped or programmed to command "big oil" to make "cheap power".

Or am I just talking crazy?

[Fredsvt]

It's easy enough to know if its chipped. Do a KOEO test, it should throw a P0605. Every truck that's run through the shop where I work, whether it had a physical chip or a "program" put into it has thrown that code.

 

When I see it, I immediately ask to remove the chip or ask for the programmer to "deprogram" the PCM.

 

I don't trust any data or codes from a modded PCM on a 7.3.

[Jeff_E]

Mike, what ended up fixing this one for you? I've got one doing the same thing with virtually identical numbers as yours. I was hoping to consult with you before recomming a HP pump to my customer.

[mchan68]

They never did bring it back. If I remember correctly, I recommended an IPR valve first, and if that didn't fix it, then try a high pressure pump. If this is the big huge bus we're talking about, I vaguely recall seeing IPR duty cycle ramp up to 65% under some acceleration. I'm a little rusty with 7.3s, but isn't 65% IPR duty cycle the maxed out command as 85% would be on a 6.0L?

[Jeff_E]

I'm thinking so because mine hit 65% at some points and leveled off there. I'm trying a hp pump, I'll report back when it's done, Thanks Mike.

[Jeff_E]

Well, HPOP did NOT fix mine. I even cleaned out the fuel sender screens too and it still sets P1211 when accelerating over 70mph. I've got an email in to hotline, but if anyone else has something to add I'm all ears. I was hoping the new HPP would come with a new IPR but it didn't so I'm going to try and scrounge one up somewhere and try it while I'm waiting for hotline.