Low ICP

[blown99]

Looking for some input/advice on a 7.3l 444e in an International chassis. I've had 3 of these exact same problems in the past year all with varying hrs, miles and misc new parts. After a long sustained pull at operating temp only, when the icp is over 2500psi only, the icp begins to slowly fall off until the engine light/active code is set. The first truck I had come in came from another dealer with every part of the icp system replaced - hpop, icp sensor, ipr valve, 8 inj. I fixed this one with a simple reprogram. (I can not get any info from navistar as to what the program would have to do with fixing an icp issue. Next truck basically the same thing, only the reprogram did not fix it. Ran new power and ground wires to the ecm from the batt. New wiring from ipr and icp to the ecm. I ended up using a program from a 210 hp engine truck and the problem went away. (The first two trucks were 230hp, the 210 hp engine does not get to 2500psi of icp) Now I have a 215 hp truck doing the same thing. It has a 1yr old replacement engine. The hpop put out 3100psi, seemed low, so it got replaced as did the ipr valve. That did not fix the complaint. I've seen this on the ford side and it was always debris from a back yard guy doing an oil pan and not cleaning it well, but all these engines I am experiencing this problem on are virgin. IPR duty cycle is 12% hot idle, I have on the previous two engines, removed the valve covers with a hot engine and applied batt power and ground to the ipr and cranked the engine to look for an injector that is leaking an excessive amount oil. Base oil pressure is with in spec at all times. There has to be something that I am missing but don't know what?

[International Tech]

ICP sensor screwing with ya? Whats the oils condition? I had one a lil while back that turned out out to be silicone(small pieces) in the pan getting sucked up into the oil pump and base oil pressure was always good. I still have nightmares about that one. An oil pump corrected that issue.

[Bruce Amacker]

Looking for some input/advice on a 7.3l 444e in an International chassis. I've had 3 of these exact same problems in the past year all with varying hrs, miles and misc new parts. After a long sustained pull at operating temp only, when the icp is over 2500psi only, the icp begins to slowly fall off until the engine light/active code is set.

 

333?

 

The first truck I had come in came from another dealer with every part of the icp system replaced - hpop, icp sensor, ipr valve, 8 inj. I fixed this one with a simple reprogram. (I can not get any info from navistar as to what the program would have to do with fixing an icp issue. Next truck basically the same thing, only the reprogram did not fix it. Ran new power and ground wires to the ecm from the batt. New wiring from ipr and icp to the ecm.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to do a voltage drop test than replacing the harnesses unnecessarily?

 

I ended up using a program from a 210 hp engine truck and the problem went away. (The first two trucks were 230hp, the 210 hp engine does not get to 2500psi of icp)

 

I don't really care for this "fix".

 

Now I have a 215 hp truck doing the same thing. It has a 1yr old replacement engine. The hpop put out 3100psi, seemed low, so it got replaced as did the ipr valve.

 

What's it doing now on a deadhead test? I like to see 4100+. Just because the HPOP is "new" doesn't mean it's good...

 

 

That did not fix the complaint. I've seen this on the ford side and it was always debris from a back yard guy doing an oil pan and not cleaning it well, but all these engines I am experiencing this problem on are virgin.

 

Virgin? 1 year old engine? I'm not sure I agree with that either...

 

IPR duty cycle is 12% hot idle,

 

On the high side of normal, but OK.

 

I have on the previous two engines, removed the valve covers with a hot engine and applied batt power and ground to the ipr and cranked the engine to look for an injector that is leaking an excessive amount oil.

 

You can do this with the motor running, too and look for the upper o-ring leaking. Pull the VC, run the engine and momentary ground the IPR return to deadhead the pump. I've seen a few high mileage engines where the upper inj o-ring wore a groove into the heads and would leak at high pressure, even with new o-rings. Pulling the injector and inspecting the bore showed a visible groove in the head where the upper o-ring rides. Looking at the spill ports might tell you something, too.

 

Base oil pressure is with in spec at all times.

 

They've had some issues with EOP sensors, any chance it's lying to you?

 

There has to be something that I am missing but don't know what?

What year is/are these? There are the early ones that take a different ICP and IPR and if they're switched a similar problem occurs, I've seen it. Were the HPOP's looked up by VIN or ESN? Are the ICP/IPR/HPOP matched correctly? BTDTGTTS....

 

I might put some physical gauges on LP and HP and monitor them during a road test. Doing a oil aeration test might not hurt- does the ICP/IPR remain steady as the problem occurs, or do they cycle strongly? Like IT said above, I have seen some LPOPs screw my day up real well too. Was the motor a short/long block or running complete? Pan pushed in on the bottom? Did it come from Franklin Power Products?

 

I know, too many questions and not enough answers....

 

Good Luck!

 

[blown99]

These engines have all been late 2001 and up, use AD injectors, ipr valve part number ending in 217C91 and are all 215hp or greater. (up to 230hp) Yes, it is a 333 code. Franklin reman (run for your life)

 

Did a bit of digging today. Dumped the oil and filter. Hard to tell if there was contaminants or aeration (although it is serviced at our shop regularly) Ran it, same problem, but took longer to act up and I noticed an intermittent light skip that was just noticeable when logging with master diagnostics. Pulled the high pressure oil reservoir cover and inspected the screen. Found some metal shavings in the screen and reservoir. Boss did not want to tell customer that his new reman engine just out of warranty needs to come apart to find the cause and told me to get it so the "light" doesn't come on. I programmed the ecm with a "2000 444e" program from a 2001 truck. Old calibration was a "2003 444e" (bv04 calibration) although the truck was a 2001. 5 hp less, but it does not let the icp get up to 2500psi so the problem does not occur. Rd test and all was good. No more overshooting of the icp, no more intermittent light skip. I would like to know what is failing, time will tell though.

 

When the problem occured with the old calibration the icp would begin to drop off at full load, around 2000rpm. The ipr% would steady increase to try and compensate for the "leak" until it hits its max duty cyle of 64.05%. It would take 15 secs or so from the time it started to drop off until it was low enough to trip a fault. (drop of 250psi) so it is not a fast quick drop off. I have a snap shot of it on the work computer, I can try to send it to you if you would like?

[Bruce Amacker]

These engines have all been late 2001 and up, use AD injectors, ipr valve part number ending in 217C91 and are all 215hp or greater. (up to 230hp) Yes, it is a 333 code. Franklin reman (run for your life)

 

Did a bit of digging today. Dumped the oil and filter. Hard to tell if there was contaminants or aeration (although it is serviced at our shop regularly) Ran it, same problem, but took longer to act up and I noticed an intermittent light skip that was just noticeable when logging with master diagnostics. Pulled the high pressure oil reservoir cover and inspected the screen. Found some metal shavings in the screen and reservoir. Boss did not want to tell customer that his new reman engine just out of warranty needs to come apart to find the cause and told me to get it so the "light" doesn't come on.

 

Oh, brother.

 

I programmed the ecm with a "2000 444e" program from a 2001 truck. Old calibration was a "2003 444e" (bv04 calibration) although the truck was a 2001. 5 hp less, but it does not let the icp get up to 2500psi so the problem does not occur. Rd test and all was good. No more overshooting of the icp, no more intermittent light skip. I would like to know what is failing, time will tell though.

 

You didn't fix the truck, you only delayed the inevitable and eventual failure of an unnamed component at this time. Is your customer going to appreciate that? Would you? What if the HP pump grenades tomorrow 200 miles from the dealer and it's towed either to you or another shop. Are you going to look good? Hell no, you're going to be the last MF that worked on it, screwed it up, and gave it back to the cust. Not a set of shoes I want to be in.

 

When the problem occurred with the old calibration the icp would begin to drop off at full load, around 2000rpm. The ipr% would steady increase to try and compensate for the "leak" until it hits its max duty cycle of 64.05%. It would take 15 secs or so from the time it started to drop off until it was low enough to trip a fault. (drop of 250psi) so it is not a fast quick drop off. I have a snap shot of it on the work computer, I can try to send it to you if you would like?

 

It sounds like you are the mercy of your SM or shop foreman on this vehicle, but I do not care for the decision process made to get this truck on the road. Fix it? No, program it to a lower HP so the light doesn't come on. That's bullshit, plain and simple. If that were my truck and I found out about this, I'd be irate.

 

If this were your truck would you like the reprogram? Have you brought that up with your SM/foreman? If this cust is treated this way, will he return to purchase another truck from you or IH?

 

This is going to sound really silly, but I was brought up with the Golden Rule- do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

 

At the end of the day, can you look in the mirror and be happy with your work?

 

I'm completely against this type of shoddy workmanship. This is what gives our trade a bad name.

 

[International Tech]

Yall should have sucked it up and told the customer that you would have had to go into it. It will be back.

[blown99]

These decisions are not up to me. Like I said before, I would have liked to dug into it to find the root cause. In the end it is up to the customer to decide based on the facts that we give them - it is just out of warranty, now is the time for the SM to make a few phone calls and see what can be done. This is a regular customer who buys all their trucks from us. They currently are down a truck and have one on order that will be delivered in late summer. I would have laid it on the table for the customer; I'm with you guys, fix it right or don't do it, but in this case it was not up to me. Some people would rather spend 10hrs to jerry rig something vs 11hrs to fix it right. What could have been a small repair now will undoubtedly turn into a much more expensive repair down the road; heck there is metal floating through the engine.

In all honesty I could not feel the difference in the 5hp reduction under load.

Strange how the different program mask this problem though. I would like to no the differences in the calibrations but that info is not available.

[dieseldoc]

Doesnt IH know when you guys make hp changes? I know in the world of cat I have to obtain factory passwords to finish programming the horsepower change? What are the emissions like at this hp rating but that hp ratings iron? I think it is time for you to have a talk with the service manager or store manager, Somebody about this craziness. It is fine to call the customer and give them the info and options so they can make the call. However I dont think it is fair when they dont give the customer all the facts. just my two cents

[joshbuys]

Doesnt IH know when you guys make hp changes? I know in the world of cat I have to obtain factory passwords to finish programming the horsepower change? What are the emissions like at this hp rating but that hp ratings iron? I think it is time for you to have a talk with the service manager or store manager, Somebody about this craziness. It is fine to call the customer and give them the info and options so they can make the call. However I dont think it is fair when they dont give the customer all the facts. just my two cents

 

+1! There is absolutely no excuse for not calling the service manager out on this or even going over his head to the GM!

 

I'm not trying to judge you, maybe you did this, but as professionals there are lines and standards that MUST be maintained!!

[topfuel341]

I know this is a late reply, but after reading all of this, I kinda thought, WOW! Everyone sure seems fired up on this one! I do agree, that we need to always do the right thing, But, this is the real world! It looks like blown99, was always trying to do the right thing! I think by communicating with others, showed that he had the customers best interest in mind! Sure seems like he was trying to find a fix, and didn't seem like he was happy with this type of (repair). Lets face it, we ALL have had to do things that are out of our control! So what is a guy supposed to do? Lets see, the economy is in the tank, bills are still there, do you get into an argument with your boss, go over his head, preaching what you know in your heart to be right, and take a chance maybe it will all work out, or maybe I will be out of a job tomorrow! I know, lets go right to the customer, tell him what a shabby dealer you work for, I'm sure the customer wont say anything, and the boss will totally understand why you took it upon yourself, to deal with the customer! You know what? If that truck breaks down, the customer will have to deal with the owner of the dealer, and his managment team! I am Ford certified, also crew on a top fuel dragster, where everything has to be perfect! But I also work for UPS, and no matter what my morals are, decisions are made that are out of my control! So we have to deal with it! I think that blown99 is showing the utmost respect for his work quality, and concern for his customers! We don't live in a perfect world, we just do the best we can! If you really want to see some hack mechanics, stop by any UPS shop, and you will see people who just don't care! UPS would be happy to have someone like this man, who actually cares about his job!

[blown99]

Thank you very much for understanding the position I was put in! I appreciate your respect and support.

[Keith Browning]

I think the key here is that it is out of his control.

[topfuel341]

No problem. We are all on the same team! I do have a truck that is busting my chops, maybe you can help me out. I have a 1997 p700, with a t444e. This truck had a road call for no start. Was towed in, started fine. scand it, had code for icp unable to build pressure during cranking. checked batteries=ok

starter good, so our most common issue is the ipr. so I changed the ipr. started up fine, and let it go. Two days later, road call. I went out on it. started when I got there, of coarse. drove back to the shop, no problem, but had a long crank when I tried to restart it. scan again, same icp issue. So I replaced the HP pump. test drive, and let it run for an hour. started right up after sitting, let it go. Two days later, yep, road call. Pulling my hair out now, send it out, not sure if you got it. My thoughts were the ck valve in the resevoir, but I didnt have time to ck the level. came back, no problem found. Next day, Road call. So,the last attempt I changed the fuel pump, was orig. and ck all lines for possible restrictions. I only moved away from the icp, because I don't have a guage bar! I can only see icp at the 600psi mark. I know thats not HP pump pressure of 3000+ I usually see 500 to 700 or so on known good trucks. However, now on this one, while cranking, it is in the mid 200 range. I guess I can isolate the heads, but was thinking more on injectors? It passed a buzz test, but would almost stall on a basic koer test, and then started to run bad. cleared up after a while. this truck always ran fine, and never smoked, so I dont know. let me know what you think! Thanks! PS. I did ck res. level=ok

[joshbuys]

Did you happen to notice if ICP sensor is original(old style)? If so, unplug sensor and check for oil leaking through center, I seem to see a ton like this! Causes some weird issues!!

[topfuel341]

HI,joshbuys! Thanks for looking at this! It has the new style icp, no oil leaking. My question on icp sensors, is even if the sensor is defective, won't the ecm use a fixed value to command the ipr? I can leave the icp disconnected, on these trucks, and it will always start and run. How can I be certain the high pressure oil is building or leaking, without a guage bar? I'm trying to get UPS to buy one, but not looking to good. I'm afraid to look into buying one myself, in fear of sticker shock! lol.Thanks again!... Dwayne.

[blown99]

You can buy a gauge that will go to 10,000psi by ashcroft, liquid filled for about $100. They work great for testing all types of hydraulic systems and are very durable. Does this have the threaded AN fittings on the high pressure oil lines that feed the heads? If so, remove the hose and apply shop air at 120 psi to each head. Leave the air connected for a while. Remove the oil fill cap and dipstick. Listen for air leaks in the engine. What ever bank is leaking is the one you will have to pull the valve cover and inspect. An alternative to this would be remove both valve covers, unplugg the cam sensor, apply battery power and ground to the ipr valve (not longer than 90sec at a clip), have someone crank the engine. This will make max icp and will allow you to find you high pressure oil leak.

From what you have described I would guess and say that an injector o-ring is leaking. Many of the injectors that I have taken out of the ups cars have the first generation of o-rings on them. I am always surprised to see the hundreds of thousands of miles on those orings without failures.

[LARRY BRUDZYNSKI]

Cold start is starting and running until hot???? Have you checked the LPOP and the pickup gasket that always seems to kick our ass? What has been done to this truck elsewhere? Oil change lately somewhere else? Gone back and started from square one? Take a step back and start rechecking everything.....

[topfuel341]

Ok, guys! Thanks for the tips. will try to check tomorrow. I forgot to mention, that during all the road calls, I failed to look at the oil condition! So, I did change the oil and filter, and ran it around our shop every day for 3 days. Seemed to be the answer....NOT, it lasted another 2 days, and road call! I replaced the fuel filter housing assy. and thought maybe the regulator on the housing could be a problem. Our mechanic in Stratford had a similar issue as mine, and he claims that was the fix for him. Not so for me.

[topfuel341]

YA, the truck starts when its cold, and will make most of the day, then near the end of the day, it just wont restart. when this is happening to me, it usually starts after about 1 hour of sitting, but with a long crank. I didn't think the LPOP would be the problem, only because the resevoir was full, no oil light on, and gauge was normal. Where would you put an oil gauge? off the oil cooler? or is there a better place? Also blown99.. wouldn't the truck smoke real bad, with the symptoms I'm getting? The oil would be pouring into the cyl. right? It runs good, and doesnt smoke, except for the brief time on the scanner koer tests. PS I will try to get a gauge tomorrow. Thanks again guys!

[cbriggs]

The oil will leak up and out around the injector body, as the fuel section of the injector is at the bottom, oil section at the top. Deffinatly sounds like a slight or intermitant hp oil leak.

[Mbl35]

Yea i got to start jumping the ipr's and pulling valve covers on our stalling 7.3's. We got a few 7.3's that stall out on occasion and hard start when cold, they had icp's replaced and connerctors for oil intrusion. Mostly the day crew sees them, i'm usually too busy at night to check them. If it ever slows down around here and i get a chance i'm gona do this on these intermittant stallers, it's a real pain in the ass to do on e-series though and thats the only thing we got with 7.3 in it.

[topfuel341]

Thanks for the info, cbriggs! How's things up north?

[topfuel341]

Same around here Mbl35. We can't seem to catch a break! At least we're workin though! I'm gonna try jumping the ipr also. Thanks brother!

[mrbudge]

When it won't start pull the valve covers and look for oil coming out of the injectors when cranking. Won't always leak out of the spill spout, I look for a trail of oil from the injector to the bottom of the head.

[topfuel341]

Hi, mrbudge! I haven't been able to look at this truck, 1 mechanic just had an operation, and the boss getting an operation today! I am backed up with so much work, I have to let that one sit. As far as noises, nothing abnormal, even buzz tested ok. after I clean up some other trucks, I will get back to it!