OHNO60 Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 Just a question, how many of you guys are replacing failed components ( pistons,cranks,etc) verse short block or long block 6.0/6.4 replacements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 It seems typical that many base engine failures take out a lot of assemblies that are not salvageable. About the only thing I have ever been able to repair has been valves in the heads from seizing. Other than that its been largely catastrophic failures. and things like wrist pin retainers and melted pistons requiring short blocks, heads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 I'll take the other side of that - I've been successful in replacing failed components only when possible. Melted pistons can be swapped out cheaply, and as long as the cylinder wall is not damaged it'll run just fine. Of course, if there is metal transfer from the piston to the head, it'll need a head. I've got one down now that is on it's third piston in the #8 hole and second piston in the #2 hole. Two of those failures were melted pistons, and one was a bent rod that did not scar the cylinder wall. If I had put short blocks in for all these repairs, my 126 report would be through the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 That is just my problem Greg. All of these burnt pistons I have encountered had related cylinder damage - scoring, metal transfer and large scrapes. Can't do shit with that. I have a 6.4L in my bay right now that has a failed HPFP and low compression in two holes. I wonder what I am going to find THIS time. I wish I could make repairs, the process of diagnosis, tear down and cost cap determination is killing me. The one truck with the stuck valves was great. All I needed was one valve, some keepers and gaskets and she was outta there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 I agree that these trucks do seem to fail in a more catastrophic manner than the 6.0's did. How many bent rods did we get when the EGR cooler on them blew? I guess I've been lucky with the melted pistons so far as to not have block damage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 I'm gonna have to agree with Keith on this one, everyone I've seen with a melted piston had scoring to the cylinder wall, of course, the ones I've seen, got driven til they wouldn't pull themselves before they were brought to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 It still ran, I thought it was ok! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHNO60 Posted April 18, 2010 Author Share Posted April 18, 2010 You hit it right in the head Greg, 126 through the roof. Trying every attempt to drop it but feels like a one legged relay race. Exactly what do you suggest as "salvageable" repairs? Every failure seems to be combination of long and short block replacements. You guys feel these 6.0's can actually be repaired without short block replacements? say crankshaft or piston or camshaft damage from lifter failure. Better yet survive. I appreciate your help guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 I've only had to short or long block a very few 6.0's... Since they don't bend rods very often, the cylinder walls tend to survive more often for me. That is usually the deciding factor as to repair it or block it. If it needs a short block due to cyilnder wall damage, and it has a head failure too, then it usually ends up over cost cap and gets a long block. Crank and cam damage is usually way, way under the cost cap - even with a new oil pump and front cover... And it's a piece of cake to swap a cam and rinse the block clean... 6.4's tend to work out the same way. I've had a handful with a bent #8 and a scarred cylinder wall. That gets a short block. However, I've had more than a few with bent rods and no cylinder wall damage that I've been able to fix just fine. Melted pistons have been repairable for me so far, too. The recent long blocks have been due to fuel system failures. Those injectors and the pump will blow right through a cost cap... So, it seems that I do a lot more repairing than replacing. Why is my 126 completely through the roof, too? Someone has got to be below the median - it sure doesn't seem to be any of us! Is someone pulling an "I Dream of Jeanie" head bob in the parking lot and writing up a 0 dollar claim for the repair? We, in a desperate attempt to get the 126 back under control in the face of several rather expensive repairs (even though they were repaired rather than replaced), are committing an act of warranty fraud. I've written up a stock unit with a 6.4L for an oil leak that won't actually be fixed. Another one of those pesky oil diptick tube o-rings... I'm not proud; in fact I am rather ashamed. I can't believe that it has come to this... I am sure that it won't affect any of you - none of you are in our market area that I am aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 Why did you write up the 6.4 for an oil leak, won't that run the warranty UP instead of down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 Also, I thought that the 6.4 o-ring issue was primarily on early build trucks...i guess it couldhappen to any truck, but just a lot less common...especially if they want the parts back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 A small claim on a virgin truck will bring down the percentages on the part cost/vehicle, labor cost/vehicle and r/1000 lines. Virgin trucks haven't had a claim in the last six months. I've got a 6.4 torn down right now waiting on pistons and a head. The o-ring on the dipstick tube for that unit will get replaced, of course. It just won't get turned in with the rest of the parts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 I got ya, I didn't realize it worked like that, I thought that it was an overall picture of ALL the repairs. Good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 18, 2010 Share Posted April 18, 2010 Average RO cost is a big deal.... we try to write up as many of my driveway fixes as we can... A handful of .3 ROs can do wonders for your 126 numbers. Thank the good Lord for burned out light bulbs... replace bulb, clear codes.... done deal and good for us. As for engine blocks... we don't have a cylinder bore guage for checking out of round and taper... we don't have any means of fitting pistons correctly (if a piston is snug, a deglazing hone is going to be a slow and inaccurate way of making it fit.... What is also interesting is that they give a piston to wall clearance spec but they forget to remind you of how to properly measure it (90 degrees to the pin, room temp with a pull gauge). For further clarification, consult the WSM 303-01C "General Procedures". Pay close attention to the sections marked "block distortion" (they will have you measure for deck flatness... usually not a big concern), "Cylinder bore out of round" (important to notice that they don't tell you to check for cylinder taper but there IS a spec for it)... The one last thing that never seems to get considered is crankshaft deflection... #8 appears to be the bent rod king of the 6.4... It's running mate is (IIRC) cylinder 3 (my diesel experience is waning). Yes, the crank is one beefy mo-fo in the 6.4... but that doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. We need to compare TDC on both of these cylinders to be sure we aren't going to run into a gotcha - might be imperceptible... might be a heart breaker. Now... the crank in the 6.4 is forged... but that is an open ended statement... (I don't see anyone calling it a forged billet crankshaft so we can rule that out). So.. does the crank start out flat and get twisted to 90 degree throws or is it built as a four cornered crank? FWIW, crankshaft construction is a fascinating subject... and worthy of more than us saying "DUH... d'at's a crank..". If the forces inside the cylinder can bend one of these connecting rods, what else can it do? More importantly, why don't they ask us to measure this and why is there no spec? Disclaimer...crankshaft twist is something that occured to me as I sat pondering this post so I have no prior knowledge on which to base my assumptions... Could this be something even the engineers have overlooked? When we get into automatic transmissions and engines, my personal preference is to try and minimize my shops exposure to claims of inadequate repairs. If I can replace an assembly, why would a replace a single part (oversimplification, but I think you get the point)? If I have any chance in the world to cost cap a repair... I'm all over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted April 19, 2010 Share Posted April 19, 2010 Interesting that you should bring up crankshaft distortion... I can see that it would cause all manner of difficulties, what with some of the pistons coming up earlier than others when compared to the cam lobes. What kind of clearance is there between the piston and the valves normally? How many degrees out of phase would the crank need to be before the piston and valves interfere? Would drivability problems present before then? Contribution or adaptive limit codes? Maybe even a popping in the intake? As for limiting exposure to claims of inadequate repairs - it seems as if warranty and policy guidelines have forced us in the Memphis region to repair as cheaply as possible. Blowing cost caps will happen, but we have to come by it honestly - funny word to use in this case - If there is any way to keep it under the cost cap, we have found it necessary to do so. We've been playing by Fords rules, and look where it has gotten us - condition codes on out diesel engine and diesel drivablilty lines. Take this one for instance: Straightforward blown EGR cooler. follow the TSB for testing and replacing. Found P0611 in memory while EEC testing. Do the procedure for reflashing and checking FICM_MPWR and find low voltage. So we replace the FICM while doing the EGR cooler repair. Now we're screwed because a 12B599 is not normally claimed with the TSB ops. ACES boots the claim stating the repair should not be coded to a 6A642. So it gets moved from diesel engine to diesel driveabilty by recoded to a 12B599, which then puts this repair 400% higher than market average - duh, FICM failures do not usually have EGR and oil coolers and their associated labor. CPR/1000 goes up. So do we open two lines? No, that will increase the R/1000 line on the 126, as well as be overlapping labor. Do we send it out with a faulty FICM? Of course not, for the simple reason of customer assurance. We have to fix it - it's all legit - and it's even cheaper for Ford to do it at one time. But there is no way we've found to code it without Ford slapping us. The 126 is pretty good at exposing hiding places for repairs. It also leaves the only remaining possibility for getting the numbers in line - shorting the labor ops claimed. Our dealer has not gone there yet, instead opting to "repair" a stock unit or two and selling drain plug gaskets when legitimately necessary on 5/100 warranty vehicles with a deductible (it gets turned in as a $0 claim, but still counts on the 126 to lower CPR/1000). It may be a matter of time, however... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted April 19, 2010 Share Posted April 19, 2010 Jeez, and to think I was gonna start as A US Diesel Warranty Auditor on the 12th... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 20, 2010 Share Posted April 20, 2010 I'm not real large on the warranty policy manual... But shouldn't the subsequent no start issue be treated as a whole 'nother concern, altogether and maybe even be given an RO of it's own - if not, at least a line of it's own? I'm sure somebody would have some proven tactic.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHNO60 Posted April 21, 2010 Author Share Posted April 21, 2010 Nice Greg, How about this one, failed ficm aces paid claim, 126 flagged for replacing ficm labor op??? Guess i should of just performed diag and let the customer tow it home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 As a technician it is not my job to be concerned about warranty numbers. 126 what? I have never seen such a report and it is not my job to. It is my job to properly diagnose and repair vehicles. The only thing that matters is that I did my job. I refuse to stop doing my job because somebody says the numbers are not right and I refuse to do things to make the numbers right to fit Ford's objectives. No, I don't think technicians need to be concerned with this crap. We have enough to be concerned with as it is and too many techs cant even get the shit they are supposed to be concerned with right to begin with. 126 what? You gotta be kidding me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Yeah, what Keith said. I just fix the shit, and do my paperwork. The admins can worry about the warranty numbers. The fucking SECOND I find someone turning away diesel work cause it will fuck up our warranty numbers... Oh man, that won't be pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregKneupper Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I agree completely. Unfortunately my manager did not. We get screwed constantly in order to keep numbers down. We are now in an audit as we speak and the service manager is now gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 We have had mini-audits in the past due to high numbers. We had no problems what so ever. We cannot control the number of trucks and type of failures that grace our dealerships however we can control how we repair them. Properly. Follow the procedures, utilize OASIS and identify TSB's, SSM's, use the prior-approval forms and document EVERYTHING clearly on the repair order. In fact, when this happens and you prove to be doing everything right the road ahead will likely be less bumpy. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Quote: The fucking SECOND I find someone turning away diesel work cause it will fuck up our warranty numbers... Oh man, that won't be pretty. It wont be petty either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 Brad, that is just wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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