Keith Browning Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 Yes, I said meters. I was playing around with the instrument luster on a 2011 F350 and noticed that there are two engine hour meters. [*]Engine Hours [*]Engine Idle Hours I think this is interesting. Despite the fact that the engine oil life meter/reminder calculates oil integrity accounting for driving and idling there will likely be some debate or in-depth discussion about this in the future. Now we have two hour meters to really screw us up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 I saw that. I really wish however they would pick an hour to mileage conversion, and stick with it. It used to be 40, then 35, then 33, now it's 25. Makes you wonder, how many vehicles got flagged for having too many hours, but now would have been under on the new calculation. Also, does this change the want/need for service? I mean at 200 hours for LOF... let's do the math: 200 hours at 40/miles per hour = 8000mi 200 hours at 35/miles per hour = 7000mi 200 hours at 33/miles per hour = 6600mi 200 hours at 25/miles per hour = 5000mi We have a difference of 3000 miles just in LOF services, just by the spec changing. In my opinion, 5000mi is too long to run the oil in any Powerstroke, anyway. At Diavik, on a 6.0 truck a full PM service (which included a LOF and Fuel Filters as well as an air filter) was done at 300 hours. On a 6.4 truck this PM service was completed at 200 hours. Since they have gone to Spartan tuners to eliminate the regeneration, and theoretically elimintated the fuel dilution, I wonder if the PM on a 6.4 truck has been moved to 300 hours as well. This is confusing information, since there is nothing set in stone regarding the hours to miles conversion, and since it changes at the drop of a hat, it will be hard to base decisions on it regarding warranty coverage, or what the decision will be from higher up if a warranty decision is based on hours. I think the idle engine hour meter is a very valuable tool for us on the technician end of things, especially for instance in a frequent regeneration concern. Customer states vehicle regenerates very frequently. Ask customer do you idle the truck a lot, he says no, and the idle timer is at 500hrs and the Total hours is at 580 hours...we know it idles. My next question though, is the Engine Hours timer a TOTAL? Or is it the amount of hours that the engine has NOT spent at idle? Do you need to add them up, or is it Total less Idle hours to get the actual "moving" hours reading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 It has become a moot point... the 6.7 trucks will feature the IOLM system (intelligent oil life monitor). Oh, I'm sure there will be some owners that will figure out the reset procedure... but part of the prior approval process is maintenance records anyway. Let's consider that the 6.7 has some manner of deciding if the oil is diluted with fuel or is high for some other reason (haven't been to school yet and I'm sure it shows) and it is beginning to look like we can make some assumptions with a good deal of confidence. Now... the IOLM system can, if all things are right, allow up to 16,000 kms or one year.... Now, before anyone suffers a knee jerk hard enough to cause a dislocation.... "IF ALL THINGS ARE RIGHT"!!!! Like most things, at some point they have to draw a line in the sand... "this is the limit". We don't have to agree with the location of the line... we just need to have an idea of where it is. More than likely, the system will request an oil change long before we approach that line in the sand. Like fuel trims on a gas engine... the line in the sand is 25% PLUS OR MINUS. We will start to see driveability issues long before we arrive at that 25% but we generally wont see a MIL until we reach the line in the sand. I think there was a PSM regarding the IOLM system that I showed to some of our guys... the knee jerk reaction was universal "what are they thinking"? My thoughts? Just because the interval could be as high as 16,000 doesn't mean it is going to reach 16,000. The IOLM, IMHO, is going to remove a lot of doubt and/or questions regarding service interval. Sidebar... somewhere, somebady opined that Ford was trying to put us "out of business". I don't know any techs that enjoy doing oil changes.... and I see many techs do a half hearted oil change and miss so many opportunities for GRAVY.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Agreed Jim. I'm kinda old school on that shit though, I do my oil change every 5000km, sometimes sooner, I keep an eye on mileage, hours, and watch the level (6.4). If any of those things are not to my liking, I dump the oil and filter. The concern I have with the 6.7 is the pricing of the fuel filters -- people are NOT gonna wanna change the filters every 20k at $300 a pair for 'em, plus whatever one particular shop charges to put 'em on. Like we talked about on the phone the last time we spoke, I think GM has got it figured out with the injector in the downpipe to do the regeneration stuff. I realize it adds a myriad of extra fuel lines that could have leak potential, but ultimately it would keep the oil from coming fuel diluted, which would definitely be a benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 I agree... still, the bottom line is "the bottom line". We haven't gotten a diesel 2011 in yet.... 6.2 powered trucks are spendy all the same (fuck, we got a half ton in with a 60K sticker). One girl in the office says we got one coming with a sticker $84K. The IOLM system is going to help with any backlash from the injection on exhaust strategy. We do have to admit that a downstream DPF injector is going to add nearly $1000 in parts - not to mention any compromises that might come from the hardware placement. And we do have to admit that the Ford is stronger than the GM in other areas... which is likely how GM offsets the added cost of their DPF injector. in 1985 I asked a friend "what will the pick up of the future look like"? We know that now.... 20 years from now... what will the pick up truck look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Oh, the only thing I think the GM's got going for it is the downpipe injector. LOL. I drove a 6.2 truck last week, I was VERY impressed. It was a cab and chassis, so it was a little different than a pickup, but on a SRW F-350 cab and chassis, shit-canning the throttle at 60mph had the truck ALL over the road, with the traction control on. I am very impressed with the power this thing has. This will be an AWESOME replacement engine for the 5.4 and the 6.8 in my opinion. I can only imagine that engine in an F-150, or even more fun, a Mustang The dual plug thing is interesting, I would be interested to see what style of plug it uses, if it's like a 5.4 3v type plug, or a regular, old school plug, or one of each. Similar to the LS-series GM gasoline V-8, the plug wires will likely be about $300 a set. We have our first 6.7 in, it's a Lariat 250 ,and the sticker is $79k. The stupid...absolutely STUPIDEST thing I think I've seen so far yet, is the routing of the DEF line...it runs down the OUTSIDE of the frame, down at the BOTTOM of the frame rail...that is NEVER gonna cause problems, or get torn off in the mud in the patch. ((dripping with sarcasm)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 7, 2010 Author Share Posted June 7, 2010 Looks like on 6/7/2010 we are back to 33 hours? 3520 - 2003-2011 F-SUPER DUTY, 2003-2005 EXCURSION, 2004-2010 E-350 AND E-450 6.0L/6.4L/6.7L DIESELS NOT RATED BY EPA/DO NOT ATTEMPT REPAIR VEHICLES WITH A 6.0L, 6.4L OR 6.7L DIESEL ENGINE ARE NOT RATED BY THE EPA FOR FUEL ECONOMY. TO DIAGNOSE FUEL ECONOMY CONCERNS, FOLLOW THE APPROPRIATE SYMPTOM CHART LOCATED IN THE PCED AS REPORTED BY THE CUSTOMER. REMIND THE CUSTOMER THAT FUEL ECONOMY IS AFFECTED BY MANY THINGS INCLUDING: FUEL QUALITY, WINTER BLEND FUEL, AMBIENT TEMPERATURE, FREQUENT STOPS, IDLE TIME (ONE HOUR AT IDLE IS EQUAL TO 33 MILES OF DRIVING), TRAILER TOWING, SPEED, ACCESSORIES THAT PRODUCE DRAG, NON-STANDARD TIRES, TIRE PRESSURE, HEAVY LOADS, AND ABRUPT ACCELERATION. 6.4L AND 6.7L ENGINES CAN ALSO SEE AN EFFECT IN FUEL ECONOMY DEPENDING ON THE FREQUENCY OF THE DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER REGENERATION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 I was a little surprised that they felt the need to make a broadcast message like that... Did you catch SVB 2010-41N? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 What the heck is a "SVB 2010-41N?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Service Bulletin, kinda like a Warranty bulletin? Maybe you guys number/call them differently on FMCdealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 SSM = Special Service Message TSB = Technical Service Bulletin FSA = Field Service Action (recall) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Nope, different than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 There's also the daily "broadcast messages" on fmcdealer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 What the heck is a "SVB 2010-41N?" Whoops... forgot... most of ours appear to be authored by Ford Canada... Aeron... when you sign into inFord, on the first page there are two columns of links... Near the bottom of the left column is a ling "Service Bulletins". Keith - SVB 2010-41N - for your reading pleasure - Information SVB - SERVICE BULLETIN Update – Power Stroke Diesel Operating and Maintenance Requirements – 6.4L/6.0L/6.7L Super Duty and Econoline SVB 2010-41N Published: 6/7/2010 7:50:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please review this information with: _____ Dealer Principal _____ Service Manager _____ Shop Foreman _____ Service Advisors _____ Technicians Subject: Update – Power Stroke Diesel Operating and Maintenance Requirements – 6.4L/6.0L/6.7L Super Duty and Econoline. Power Stroke Diesel engines offer industry-leading power and performance. In order to continue to extract this performance, ensure longevity and reduce downtime from these high-technology engines, it is very important that customers adhere to the Ford maintenance requirements. As the customer’s primary point-of-contact, Ford Dealerships need to be well versed in these requirements and make appropriate recommendations to customers on their service visits. What's New 6.7L Power Stroke Diesel maintenance vs. 6.4 and 6.0 Intelligent Oil Life Monitor System Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) requirements and filling practices OAT Coolant Coolant test procedures Background Since the launch of the 2008 Super Duty, Ford Motor Company has made a concerted effort to ensure all Dealers are aware of critical Power Stroke® diesel engine operating characteristics and maintenance requirements. To help accomplish this, there have been a number of initiatives/ communications released. Even with these initiatives there have been an increasing number of instances of diesel engine issues resulting from inadequate maintenance. Customers may be unaware that more frequent maintenance is required when their vehicle is utilized under severe service special operating conditions (towing, long idle/commercial delivery, off road/dusty, biodiesel). Engine failures have occurred due to lack of proper coolant strength and nitrite level checks. Turbocharger failures can occur due to a lack of proper lubrication or dusting from unfiltered intake air. Turbocharger & EGR valve coking deposits collect faster in colder weather, without proper maintenance. Low fuel pressure and/or fuel volume due to fuel filter contamination can cause hard starting and slower cranking times. Fuel injector internal failures can occur due to loss of fuel pressure from clogged filters, fuel line freeze up and the injector spook valve can stick when the oil is contaminated and/or the wrong oil viscosity. Fuel injector failure, High Pressure Fuel Pump/System failures due to contaminated fuel (water in the fuel as an example) In addition, customers should be advised that non-Ford maintenance products (engine oil and oil filters, air filters, fuel filters and engine coolant) may not provide an adequate level of protection due to varying levels of aftermarket production standards and processes Engine Oil Requirements Ensure you review the engine oil SAE viscosity grade requirements contained in the Owner's Guide Supplement. To ensure trouble-free operation and longevity, it is essential that these viscosity grade requirements are followed since they change depending on ambient temperatures and vehicle usage (i.e. towing). Use only Motorcraft oil or equivalent oil conforming to Ford specification WSS-M2C171-E or API service categories CJ-4 or CJ-4/SM. These oils are compatible with the emission control equipment of the vehicle to meet the more stringent emission standards. Cold Starting Warm-Up Idling Time – Adequate warm-up idling time is required. In cold weather, the engine should idle for a minimum of 30 seconds prior to increasing engine rpm. Block Heaters - Block heater usage is not unique to the Power Stroke engine. All Power Stroke Diesel engines have recommended block heaters to be used in cold temperatures. The Power Stroke Diesel Owner's Guide Supplement strongly recommends that an engine block heater be used at temperatures below -23°C (-10°F). Diesel Fuel Conditioners Additives that will improve fuel cetane numbers may be used to verify and enhance fuel quality. Use Motorcraft Cetane Booster & Performance Improver part number PM 22B. For cold weather operation use Motorcraft Anti-Gel & Cetane Performance Improver part number PM 23B. Both levels of additives are fully compatible with all Power Stroke Diesel engines. Note: DO NOT USE alcohol based additives. This may result in damage to the fuel injectors/system. PM 15 is a fuel lubricity additive that was required to be added when injector(s) were replaced on a 7.3L. This lubricity additive is not required for 6.0L, 6.4L or 6.7L. Maintenance Interval Reminder A review of your customer's driving habits is imperative to determine if they should follow a Normal Maintenance Interval Schedule or Special Operating Conditions. See the Power Stroke 6.0L and 6.4L Diesel Owner's Guide Supplement for details. Customers who operate in Special Operating Conditions* need to be aware of the service requirements, and the service interval requirements (which include kilometres, time/months or hours of operation whichever occurs first) *refer to PSM 2010-22N for revisions to 2011 Model Year Oil Change Interval 2007 - 2008 6.0 L 2008 - 2010 6.4 L 2011 6.7 L Normal Schedule 12,000 km or 6 months, whichever occurs first 16,000 km or 6 months, whichever occurs first As indicated by Intelligent Oil Life Monitor system, up to 16,000 km or 1-year. (see below) Special Operating Conditions 8,000 km, 6 months or 200 hours of engine operation, whichever occurs first 8,000 km, 6 months or 200 hours of engine operation, whichever occurs first Intelligent Oil Life Monitor (6.7L only) The IOLM system monitors several key engine sensors, then, using an algorithm determines the remaining oil life. It notifies the driver via the message center when the engine oil needs to be changed and the Diesel Owner Guide Supplement lists other required services to be performed for each interval. Refer to PSM 2010-22N and MBG 2010-127N for further details Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) DEF (also referred to as Reductant) is to be filled on every maintenance visit, or as directed through the instrument cluster message centre. Ensure you follow the filling instructions in the vehicle Owner’s Guide. When the DEF tank is full, the fluid level in the bottle will stop dropping, indicating the fluid has stopped flowing. DO NOT try to continue to add DEF to the tank by shaking or repositioning the container to induce flow. This may cause spilling and overfill the tank. Overfilling the DEF tank can cause damage to the tank. Diesel equipped Super Duty vehicles are shipped with a factory fill of DEF. If the message centre indicates that DEF level is OK, it is neither required nor necessary to add DEF. If Owner Guide filling instructions are not followed, it is possible to overfill the tank. Ensure proper storage of unused DEF as the freezing point of DEF is -11C (12F). Review proper re-filling procedures with your service staff as well as with your customers so they are familiar with this. Directions on proper filling are listed in the Diesel Supplement Guide, and on the back of the Motorcraft jug. The Motorcraft jug comes with an automatic shut off fill spout which aids in preventing overfilling of the DEF tank. NOTE: Do Not overfill the DEF tank, or damage to the DEF tank and internal components may occur Diesel Coolant Maintenance – Service Tips TSB 09-08-05 was released to provide additional information to supplement the Workshop Manual (WSM) and Owner Guide information on the importance of cooling system maintenance for diesel engine equipped vehicles. Some customers, using their trucks under special operating conditions, indicate that operating with insufficient coolant strength (antifreeze or anticorrosion) can result in significant engine damage. Insufficient coolant strength can result when: · Cooling system pressure and coolant is lost. · The coolant level is topped off using the incorrect coolant. · The coolant is mixed with hard water. · Coolant is mixed at the incorrect concentration. · Vehicles are operated under the special operating conditions as defined in the maintenance schedule (heavy commercial use that results in frequent or extensive idling, frequent low speed/rush hour traffic use; vehicles operated under special conditions such as: sustained high speed driving at maximum GVWR load, towing a trailer, using a slide in camper (F-Super Duty) or car top carrier (E-Series). Proper cooling system maintenance is critical for maximum engine performance and efficiency on today's high technology diesel engines. It is essential that; the proper coolant is used, the coolant level is checked routinely, the coolant strength (antifreeze and anticorrosion property) is tested frequently and that the cooling system is flushed (with Motorcraft® Engine Cooling System Iron Cleaner) at the proper intervals. Check the anticorrosion strength (nitrite level) of the coolant using the Rotunda 3-Way HD Antifreeze Test Strip Kit part number 328-00001, 1-800-Rotunda (768-8632) option 2 or equivalent. Perform coolant anticorrosion strength at the frequencies recommended. Refer to the TSB or updated Workshop Manual for service procedures For the 6.7L, check the coolant inhibitor strength with a special test kit for Specialty Orange Engine Coolant and increase additive levels if the test kit says they are low. If incorrect coolant, containing high levels of Nitrite, is added or used in their truck it could cause issues with the heat exchangers. Use the 3 way test kit to check for Nitrite. Refer to the WSM for complete details. Coolant Requirements 6.0L and 6.4L – Motorcraft® Premium Gold Engine Coolant CVC-7 - 3-Way HD Antifreeze Coolant Test Kit 6.7L - Motorcraft® Specialty Orange Engine Coolant CVC-3B and Motorcraft® - Specialty Orange Engine Coolant Revitalizer - VC-12 - 3-Way HD Antifreeze Coolant Test Kit Fuel Filters and Maintenance Intervals The 6.0L, 6.4L and 6.7L Power Stroke Diesel engines are equipped with 2 fuel filters. Be aware that many aftermarket suppliers sell these filters individually and customers who do not maintain their vehicles at Ford Dealerships may not be replacing both filters and could encounter hard starting, driveability and injector damage concerns as a result. Fuel Filter Change Interval 2007 - 2008 6.0 L 2008 - 2009 6.4 L 2011 6.7 L Normal Schedule 24,000 km or 12 months, whichever occurs first 32,000 km or 24 months, whichever occurs first Required when directed through the message centre located in the Instrument Cluster Special Operating Conditions 16,000 km or 400 hours of engine operation, whichever occurs first 16,000 km or 400 hours of engine operation, whichever occurs first Power Stroke Diesel vehicles are equipped with a Fuel Conditioner Module (DFCM/HFCM) that houses one of the fuel filters and separates water from the diesel fuel. Water should be drained from the module assembly whenever the WATER IN FUEL (WIF) warning light comes on or every month, whichever occurs first. While changing these fuel filters, it is requested that the fuel is sampled for signs of contamination and is reviewed with the customer and addressed. Best Practice: Some Dealerships have included draining the fuel separator whenever a customer brings their truck in for service. This low effort service has high value for the customer and shows that you are looking after them and their vehicle. Not addressing fuel contamination and or not draining the WIF, ignoring the warning, and or the use of alcohol based fuel additives will allow water and contaminates to bypass the WIF separator and fuel filters, resulting in damage to the engine. Refer to WAN #2 2010 – to aid in discussion on proper Fuel System Maintenance Resources As a reminder detailed and complete information for both the 6.4 and 6.0 Diesel engines are found in the following resources: Power Stroke 6.0L, 6.4L and 6.7L Diesel Owner's Guide Supplement Super Duty Owner's Guide Super Duty Quick Reference Guide Delivery Checklist – new unique Diesel Delivery Checklist Summary The cascading of this information to dealership personnel and your customers will assist in the overall satisfaction and operation of the Power Stroke Diesel. As stated above we suggest this information be shared with dealership employees and with customers when the opportunity arises. Questions For questions relating to: Technical Information and Diagnostics – OASIS Shop Manual and Dearborn Technical Hotline (SVB 2010-32) Service Publications and Diagnostic Software/Hardware Support – Technical Information Support (SVB 2010-32) Owner Guide Ordering and Distribution – Helm Inc. (SVB 2010-21) Reporting New Model and other Vehicle Concerns – Submit Global Concern Report (GCR) (SVB 2010-33) Craig Davis Senior Technical Specialist cdavis6@ford.com Richard Neumann Technical Support Manager rneumann@ford.com Now... note that they referred to PSM 2010-22N , MBG 2010-127N and WAN #2 2010. The WAN is a new one on me... But - sometimes I can access PSMs and MBGs from the same page as SVBs.. other times I can't but our partsmonger can usually find them. Ford is getting better at making their websites "leak proof". Used to be I could go almost anywhere on the US web server but now I can't even get to "Ask Ernie". Some past topics for SVBs - SVB 2010-37N (Information): 5/19/2010 10:13:00 AM Technician Competency Deployment – Five Year Roll-Out Plan The purpose of this communication is to announce Ford of Canada's five year plan through 2014 in moving to Technician Competency for the remaining Service Technician Specialty Training (STST) certifications SVB 2010-34N (Information): 5/10/2010 11:58:00 AM Shop and Technician Competency Training Requirements This communication is to remind dealers of the Service Technician Specialty Training (STST) requirements for technicians and the related impact on dealership's Shop and Technician Competency status And SVB 2009-58N (Information): 10/16/2009 8:35:00 AM New Rotunda Key Chart We are pleased to announce the release of the latest Rotunda Key Chart that has now been distributed to your dealership To indicate only a few. I haven't been able to determine if these have a "shelf life" like broadcast messages. 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Aaron Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Thanks Gym! I couldn't find the damn thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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