'03 Intermittent No-Start When Hot

[mchan68]

I have one here with 275,000 kms. on the clock building only 9 to 10psi ICP when the engine is hot, and won't start. It will start with Brake Clean (or with LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of cranking). ICP volts are within specs at KOEO. After running it with valve covers removed, and EOT up to 185*F in the shop, it now restarts consistently

 

I dead-headed the pump with the block-off tools as per PC/ED procedures. Results are: ICP psi (773 peak), IPR (84.77%), ICP Des'd (1097). As you can see, that is well below the 1500 psi minimum spec. My thinking is that ICP psi and Des'd should always be very close to each other under all conditions in a perfect world. And YES, I did check ICP volts Bruce. Even though this truck starts consistently (for now), am I still into an HPP? I understand that pretty much all 2003 model years with low ICP no-starts end up being the HPP. It's just that I'm reluctant to condemn the HPP on the customer's dime until it IS completely crapped out.

 

Bear in the mind, the above unit had an FQR engine replaced at about 155,000 kms. a couple years back at another Ford Store (so there's actually 120,000 kms. on the engine now).

[Steve Mutter]

the truck I am working was a 2004 no start with base flow but no icp, I diag a hpop and when I went to remove it I found the bolt for the gear was all the way out,maybe when yours is hot the pump gear is just spinning, another thing to check is base flow when hot and have a look at the low pressure oil regulator to see if it has wear marks on the sides,maybe sticking form debris? just thinking out loud

[DamageINC]

That last one like this with the old-style pumps that I had, ended up being a pump too - and it was visibly obvious that it was messed up too. The snap ring on the back side of the pump was blown halfway out of the pump body and that plate that the snap ring secures was crooked/cocked a bit in the bore.

 

Dave

[DamageINC]

That last one like this with the old-style pumps that I had, ended up being a pump too - and it was visibly obvious that it was messed up too. The snap ring on the back side of the pump was blown halfway out of the pump body and that plate that the snap ring secures was crooked/cocked a bit in the bore.

 

Dave

[mchan68]

Well, after putting a new pump and discharge tube in it, I drove it out of the shop and the fuckin' thing quit on me DEAD as I exited the dealer lot.

 

Tow it back into my bay with IDS (and the usual no-start PIDs accessed) connected, and very quickly determine ZERO ICP pressure. WTF?

 

Bearing in mind, this thing ran smooth for about 45 minutes in my bay after the repair. I even verified the new pump output before complete re-assembly. After the new pump was installed I saw ICP_DESD reading 2300 psi, while ICP actual was about 2000 psi.

 

Pulled the oil filler tube to check the coupler to the straight rail, nothing wrong there. Used my borescope to have a look inside the driver side bank at the coupler, no problem there either. But this would be a moot point wouldn't it, since there isn't any oil coming out of the pump to begin with!!! I pulled the IPR valve, and bench tested it on another old '03 cover along side a brand new IPR with similar results which to me indicates nothing wrong with the IPR, correct? Had my apprentice crank the engine over with the IPR removed, and no oil coming out!!! WTF? Engine oil level is good. Oil quickly fills up the oil filter housing with the filter removed while cranking the engine over. What gives??????

[eastendpowerstroke]

just a wild guess... Could something be cloging the screen under the oil cooler or the passage in the block to the pump??

It does have a motorcraft oil filter and the bottom of an old filter isn't stuck in the bottom of the filter housing??

[mchan68]

just a wild guess... Could something be cloging the screen under the oil cooler or the passage in the block to the pump??

That's very good question. I never removed the oil cooler for this repair, so I couldn't tell you.

Originally Posted By: eastendpowerstroke

It does have a motorcraft oil filter and the bottom of an old filter isn't stuck in the bottom of the filter housing??

 

 

No, it has an aftermarket oil filter, but nothing was stuck in the bottom of the oil filter housing. As I indicated, oil fills up the housing very quickly while cranking the engine over.

 

I just got off the phone with "Cold Line", and their theory is just like mine, a bad-out-of-box pump. Have any of you ever had one like this?

[Jeff Clyde]

Mike, had one a couple of years ago, an 03 with a reman that quit. After a lengthy battle with the truck all I found was that the filter screen under the cooler was getting plugged with what I deemed to be casting sand from the reman process. Often my first step is to install a ford lid and filter; seen way too many weird issues caused by aftermarket filters. Good luck

[eastendpowerstroke]

No, it has an aftermarket oil filter,

Just to remove all doubt I'd swap in an OEM filter and try it again.

[Mikill]

I have actually had about three reman pumps that were bad out of the box.

[Keith Browning]

all I found was that the filter screen under the cooler was getting plugged with what I deemed to be casting sand from the reman process.

I doubt very much there would be casting sand especially if it is a reman engine. More than likely any grit or sand like material you find in the oil cooler cavity will have fallen in during the removal of the oil cooler. That area of the engine tends to trap a lot of dirt and road dust and even washing off the area or using compressed air may not remove all of the debris from every crevice.

[Jonathan302]

I have seen bad HOP pump out of the box 1 time.

 

What i have seen too, is a guy that clean the HP reservoir with a shop rag.

 

Guess what... the shop rag shreds get caught by the rough casting in the reservoir.

 

When he start it run fine, but it came back on the towing.

 

The shop rag shreds had sealed the fuckin filter ...

 

I have seen a long crank problem cause by an aftermarket oil filter, but never a no start.

[mchan68]

Mike, had one a couple of years ago, an 03 with a reman that quit. After a lengthy battle with the truck all I found was that the filter screen under the cooler was getting plugged with what I deemed to be casting sand from the reman process.

I doubt that would be the case here, since it has 120,000kms. on it, since the reman engine install.

Originally Posted By: Jeff Clyde

Often my first step is to install a ford lid and filter; seen way too many weird issues caused by aftermarket filters. Good luck

This one has Ford lid on it, with an aftermarket oil filter of similar dimension to the Ford/Motorcraft filter, not one of those garbage aftermarket ones with the one-piece elongated lid.

[mchan68]

Just to remove all doubt I'd swap in an OEM filter and try it again.

I may end up doing just that in the morning.

[mchan68]

I have actually had about three reman pumps that were bad out of the box.

Were they '03 model year pumps? How did you determine they were bad? Was there anything you could see that was visibly wrong with any of them?

[mchan68]

I doubt very much there would be casting sand especially if it is a reman engine. More than likely any grit or sand like material you find in the oil cooler cavity will have fallen in during the removal of the oil cooler. That area of the engine tends to trap a lot of dirt and road dust and even washing off the area or using compressed air may not remove all of the debris from every crevice.

Like I previously indicated, the oil cooler was never removed for this repair. I didn't see the need to. ECT/EOT spread on this engine is near ZERO. When I initially pulled the IPR valve, there wasn't any foreign debris on the screen, nor anything physically wrong with it by apearance. Reaction to active command of IPR duty cycle while the engine was running, prior to the repair was alomst instantaneous, indicative of a good IPR valve.

 

Now, I'm kinda wishing I had removed the oil cooler.

[Mikill]

Originally Posted By: Mikill

I have actually had about three reman pumps that were bad out of the box.

Were they '03 model year pumps? How did you determine they were bad? Was there anything you could see that was visibly wrong with any of them?

 

Yes they were 03 style pumps. I basically air tested the system and found no leaks and the IPR functioning properly.

[slim]

I usually can determine that oil flow is not restricted to the HPOP from the reservoir by watching the oil flow out of the supply port after removing the HPOP. If there is a steady flow of oil out of supply port without any pressure then I would assume it would have flow under pressure. BTW I had old style pump bad a couple of weeks ago that made absolutely no pressure and saw no sign of failure but a new pump fixed it--it's like the shaft inside the pump is broken but I've never taken one apart.

[eastendpowerstroke]

Just this morning while disassembling for an oil/egr cooler replacment I find this...

[fordtech03]

I've seen some of the junk aftermarket filters do that. Was that still in place with another filter?

[eastendpowerstroke]

fortunately no it wasn't stacked with another filter but I can just about guaranty that it would have been if the EGR cooler didn't fail. most lube rack guys would never even have looked twice at the old filter before stuffing another on top of it.

[Keith Browning]

And sombody dared balk at the canister filter hanging off the bottomof the 6.7L.