Jim Warman Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 or is there some weird shit going on? We see it every day... "stealership", "I don't like to send things to the deeler(sic)" and, in minced words, I can't figure out how to fix this so I HAD to send it the people I don't trust... From an iATN post <This one went to deeler under warrenty , was trying to get rig back in service faster . The deeler instaled the FICM under warrenty but also found a few hundred bucks worth of stuff to charge customer , not a big fan of deelers>. From another <we reccomended sending it to the dealer, maybe its something they will find>. I have to include this... nothing to do with what I'm trying to say but oh so precious <Replaced seals in oil injection pump. Filled pump with oil. Attempt to start, cranks, no start, 45 psi oil pressure. Vehicle ran good before seals replaced. What did we do wrong?? any help is appreciated! thank you> This was on a 7.3 so I'm betting there is a checkball and spring laying under his bench. Anyway... there seems to be this great schism betwixt "us" and the independant techs (them)... Sadly, the only real difference I can see is that we have better books (well, that and some classroom time) but isn't that what the "Description And Operation" section is for, anyway? I am getting fed up with being called a thief and a charlatan by my peers (independant techs)... especially when we are expected to fix those things they can't. I have to go cut the grass, now... but thanks for letting me rant... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Agreed. I currently have in my bay, a truck I went to offsite program a FICM on, because they had installed a new FICM, and did not have the old module available to inhale data from. It still won't start. This truck had been there for 3 months. Towed in for no-start. It had stalled in a parking lot, and not long after it had stalled, I came across it and asked the guy(s) if they needed a hand. They told me to piss off. Piss off, indeed. They've put three turbos on it, an IPR, a cam sensor...and probably some more shit I'm gonna discover on Tuesday. Oh, and this has an Edge Juicy Fruit with AttiTOOD on it, too. Muck fe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Gimme ~250 word commentary on the topic and I'll put it on the front page. I'm back to publishin' stuff there again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Bridging The Gap An insightful look at the difference between dealership service departments and service departments at independent garages. Many times, we as dealer technicians are faced with a repair order that clearly states "TOWED FROM ANOTHER SHOP" or "HAS BEEN AT XYZ GARAGE FOR X MONTHS" and typically, these vehicles have had several hundred, if not THOUSANDS of dollars worth of parts THROWN at them. This does not even touch the fact that the customer has been without his or her vehicle for the amount of time the vehicle has been down. A lot of times, there are somewhat simple repairs for the concerns, coming down to a re-flash, or perhaps a Technical Service Bulletin that shows the replacement of a failed part with an updated one. These bulletins may also include reflashing of a particular module to help correct the concern. A lot of independent garages do not have easy access to these types of bulletins or tools, and a lot of times, a lot of unnecessary repairs are performed before the actual issue is fixed, and a lot of times -- this is repaired by sending the vehicle to the dealership for the TSB or reflash repair. In actuality, it comes down a lot of the time to not having the service information available to the independent garage, and when it is taken to the dealership, the whole job is blown out of proportion. The dealer then turns into the "stealer" as the independent garage may lay blame in the direction of the dealership, for the inadequacy of their repair documentation. I find all too often, garages searching public forums for information regarding particular repairs. All too often, the information relayed across the internet is erroneous, at best. Again, this information is used in a vehicle repair, with no real basis or qualifications behind the person passing out the information. If a particular repair facility is unwilling to purchase the proper workshop or wiring manuals to repair your vehicle, it would likely be in the customer's best interest to take it to the dealership to perhaps get the diagnosis and repair completed by someone who has the proper tools, documentation, and skills to do so. Guessing, going by 'gut feelings' or unloading the parts cannon is not an acceptable practice, and when the ammunition for the parts cannon starts at around $300 for each piece...it can be quite a drain on the customer's wallet. There ARE tools, documentation, and access to ALL the necessary materials to repair ANY Ford vehicle available to ANYBODY, it's merely a question of how much that particular service center wants to spend to'bridge the gap' between the dealer and the independent garage. There is no reason that an independent garage could not be on the same playing field as a dealership. It's merely, as stated before, a question of "How much do I want to spend money to make some money?" A returning, happy customer, in my opinion, is worth more than all the diagnostic tools, information, or specialty tools in the world. Unfortunately, all these things are NECESSARY to GET a happy, returning customer, with a vehicle that's been FIXED RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. This may look like a some what objective look at the topic at hand, but I have worked both in the independent field as well as the dealership field and the presence of specialty tools, diagnostic equipment, and service information; as well as several other like-minded techs that may have seen the particular concern I am dealing with before, and can point you in a diagnostic direction, is absolutely priceless. Holy run on sentences batman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Well, here's my list: My Parts manager asks me to talk to one of their "good" customers. The end result of this, is their "good" customer ends up towing a high mileage '04 E-350 box van (679,000 kms.) onto my doorstep. This thing is SOOOOO dead, you can barely see the lights flicker when you key on. So, I sell two new BXT-65-850 batteries (with labour to install of course, and don't you just LOVE replacing batteries on E-Series?) just to BEGIN the diagnostic process. Very quickly, I determine insufficient ICP pressure to start engine. Open the hood, and the air inlet just REEEKS of ether!!! About less than a half hour later, I determine the IPR not fucntioning. Slam dunk a new IPR and life is good....... for about two months. Apparently this truck sat for two weeks before being towed to me. Same vehicle shows up on the doorstep of "good" customer with a misfire and a turbo not functioning. After I brought IDS with me and some testing at "good" customer's shop, I quickly instruct him to test and replace #8 injector and remove the turbo and EGR for further inspection. A new unison ring and EGR valve later, and the truck is running like "brand new" as the owner of the shop puts it. Same shop now gets an '05 E-Series towed into them as a no-start with P2290 and P2291. I bring IDS over along with the air line fitting to air test. Very quickly, I instruct his guys to remove the HPOP from the vehicle. Sure enough, this HPOP is GRENADED!!! Supposedly, this truck had just been "repaired" by Dixie Ford in Mississauga the day prior, to fix this issue. And they paid $1700 for the "repair". With 469,000 kms. on this truck, it didn't even have the updated one-piece branch tube connector in it!!! Well, at least these guys are giving me some $$$$ for my time, I will say THAT much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Via PM, Or on the topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 The only good thing to be said about a car that comes to the dealer after an indy throws in the towel: Its super easy to fix because they have already put every part they can think of on the car except for the right part. Now its just a matter of putting on the only part that hasnt been replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 So look at all the shiny ones, and replace the one that still has underhood crud on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredsvt Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 A view from the indy side: I have access to Ford's service information, any help I could want from our Ford store that sells us the parts. But, since I don't have an IDS, I am ill equipped to mess with a 6.0 much less a 6.4. Where I work recommends taking those trucks to Ford for driveability work, or engine work whether in warranty or not. These engines can literally bankrupt a customer if incorrect diagnosis or someone who's not experienced with them attempts repairs with no or "some" information. I've told the owner, I'd gladly (I know a glutton for punishment) work on them, should we properly tool up for them. When someone's experienced with the 6.0/6.4 and it's not in warranty, and the customer understands that they can cost a fortune to repair, then it can be a money making proposition. Am I wrong in what I wrote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Not so long ago, I inherited a total nightmare from an indi, or perhaps a shadetree mechanic, as the customer will not tell us where it came from. Long story short, this truck, a 2004 E-450, was towed into our heavy duty shop, blowing white smoke and losing coolant. An estimate was given to replace the EGR and oil coolers, and all the usual mumbo-jumbo that comes along with it. The estimate was the same as would have been from our shop, and the customer ended up taking it away, as it was too expensive. 2 weeks later, the truck was towed to us as a no-start. It had a brand new FICM in the cab, and we were requested to install and program it. I did this, and it still did not start. We quoted the usual 170 bucks to diagnose what is really wrong... and got yelled and screamed at for being a rip-off. Finally, we got the go ahead for diagnosis. When I pulled off the dog-house, I was amazed by what I saw. It turns out the "shop" the van was taken to said that our diagnosis was wrong, and it needed headgaskets, and that's what they did... Along with both coolers. I found 6 out of 8 fuel injector connectors were broken, 3 of them not even through the rocker carrier. The right side valve cover was absolutely mangled... The bracket that hold the GPCM and battery cable terminal was not even there. The 2 cables were put together with a nut and bolt and wrapped in black tape, and contacting the turbo inlet pipe. And more things I can't recall right now. Moving on, 3500 bucks later, 6 new injectors, a valve cover, and countless other things I can't remember the truck runs! For 5 minutes... Then the IPR plugged up with junk and stalled. A new IPR and it was good to go. 3 days later, the van got towed back in with the serpentine belt blown off. Upon further inspection, I found it had a new power-steering pump, and the pulley had only been pressed on about half as far as it should have been. A new belt and properly installing the pulley, and all was good... again... for now. 2 weeks later, towed back in for a no-start... The IPR was jammed up again. I quoted to remove the oil cooler to check the reservoir and clean it out, replace the screen and IPR and so on. More yelling and screaming, and threats of legal action for a few days, but I finally got the go ahead. After removing the oil cooler, I was again amazed by what I saw... It appears that somebody decided to empty their sand-box in to the oil cooler reservoir (really, there was no way that this much debris could have been sitting in the valley prior to the butchering it received). Not a single window on the screen was intact. I removed the HPOP, cleaned the reservoir and passage, new screen, another new IPR... And it's all good... FOR NOW! Bottom line, don't go to the dealership, they're too expensive! Oh, and the threats of legal action are still on going... As all these issues are our (apparently) fault! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 I would like to say that anybody that is on this site and works at an Independent shop has my respect. You wouldn't be on here if you were one of the parts changers I mentioned in my above post. Like Jim said there are good and bad techs at both dealerships and indys. I hope no one here takes offense at anything I have said, it is not directed at you personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 No you are not and at least you have a head on your shoulders. My front part counter guys sometimes ask me questions for local guys having "difficulties" and apparently there are a few local garages that just throw parts at these things. There are also some that know which end of the truck is the one with the engine. Now, we have a couple shops that have given up and have begun sending their work to us, but what gets me is that the shop is the customer... they send the truck to us rather than referring the customer to us. Not sure what to think about that one. This topic started out with the foul taste of disrespect that gets thrown at the "dealerships" and dealer techs. Like the indies, dealers have their degrees of quality and competence however we never seem to get much slack in the public forums. Jim made this excellent statement in another topic: "To a very great degree... Ford isn't our enemy.... we are our own enemy and prove it day after day" Insert whatever you like in place of "Ford" here: dealerships, indies, the customers or the trucks. It all starts with us, whomever we may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Not so long ago, I inherited a total nightmare from an indi, or perhaps a shadetree mechanic, as the customer will not tell us where it came from. Long story short, this truck, a 2004 E-450, was towed into our heavy duty shop, blowing white smoke and losing coolant. An estimate was given to replace the EGR and oil coolers, and all the usual mumbo-jumbo that comes along with it. The estimate was the same as would have been from our shop, and the customer ended up taking it away, as it was too expensive. 2 weeks later, the truck was towed to us as a no-start. It had a brand new FICM in the cab, and we were requested to install and program it. I did this, and it still did not start. We quoted the usual 170 bucks to diagnose what is really wrong... and got yelled and screamed at for being a rip-off. Finally, we got the go ahead for diagnosis. When I pulled off the dog-house, I was amazed by what I saw. It turns out the "shop" the van was taken to said that our diagnosis was wrong, and it needed headgaskets, and that's what they did... Along with both coolers. I found 6 out of 8 fuel injector connectors were broken, 3 of them not even through the rocker carrier. The right side valve cover was absolutely mangled... The bracket that hold the GPCM and battery cable terminal was not even there. The 2 cables were put together with a nut and bolt and wrapped in black tape, and contacting the turbo inlet pipe. And more things I can't recall right now. Moving on, 3500 bucks later, 6 new injectors, a valve cover, and countless other things I can't remember the truck runs! For 5 minutes... Then the IPR plugged up with junk and stalled. A new IPR and it was good to go. 3 days later, the van got towed back in with the serpentine belt blown off. Upon further inspection, I found it had a new power-steering pump, and the pulley had only been pressed on about half as far as it should have been. A new belt and properly installing the pulley, and all was good... again... for now. 2 weeks later, towed back in for a no-start... The IPR was jammed up again. I quoted to remove the oil cooler to check the reservoir and clean it out, replace the screen and IPR and so on. More yelling and screaming, and threats of legal action for a few days, but I finally got the go ahead. After removing the oil cooler, I was again amazed by what I saw... It appears that somebody decided to empty their sand-box in to the oil cooler reservoir (really, there was no way that this much debris could have been sitting in the valley prior to the butchering it received). Not a single window on the screen was intact. I removed the HPOP, cleaned the reservoir and passage, new screen, another new IPR... And it's all good... FOR NOW! Bottom line, don't go to the dealership, they're too expensive! Oh, and the threats of legal action are still on going... As all these issues are our (apparently) fault! If this vehicle had've shown up on MY doorstep, I would've approached the quote with, "Well first I need to START with ......" before going any further. Funny Alex. The way you describe this vehicle almost perfectly mirrors the two vehicles in my post above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 The derogatory references to the "dealership" or "stealership" in the public forums really fucking piss me off though. I have managed to maintain self control lately, I don't know how, but I have. When I mentioned giving me 250 words this is what I wanted a response to... I guess I misunderstood the original post. I am still grappling with the right words to address this attitude and publish something... maybe that is ill-conceived and should be forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 I am still grappling with the right words to address this attitude and publish something... maybe that is ill-conceived and should be forgotten. Ahem....Not quite Keith...... The things that bring most techs and dealership employees to the breaking point is the media and the lower life parts changers and Youtube pro's(Rex), not to mention any problem a vehicle may or may not have is magnified 10 fold due to the internet and the like. We didn't see the problems we do this bad before the information-highway formed. We have found new "professional" advise in the "monkey house" and the like. People that only have "worked" on maybe 1-2 vehicles in their whole life and its gospel to them. Remember the 7.3 oil pan fix?????? Sorry, OMFG are you kidding me. We could have almost overhauled the engine and put it back in the time they killed a bay, let alone "patching a oil pan". The things that keep us coming back.......New and different situations everyday. Lets face it if it wasn't for the "pros" out there we wouldn't be able to make fun and realize that we do know what we are doing for the most part..... We aren't perfect but who is? We need to learn something new everyday. If we think we are above that we might as well be them..... Keith, You can polish this and edit as needed, maybe expand on what I missed, I'm sure Gym will and so will some others. Pick the best key points from all of us and make us proud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 The derogatory references to the "dealership" or "stealership" in the public forums really fucking piss me off though. I have managed to maintain self control lately, I don't know how, but I have. I could not agree with that more. I outright refuse to help anybody out on a public forum that uses that term... furthermore, we offer up our time and expertise for free on some of those forums... How is that "stealing"? The problem with most of the people on pulic forums is the fact that they've tried to fix it first, or had "their mechanic" try and fix it first, and then end up on our doorstep, paying even more on top of what they've already spent. Since we are usually that last ones the vehicle sees prior to going out on the road fixed, we are also the last one the customer sees, and they were already somewhat disgruntled to begin with from the run around they received prior to coming our way. Would they have been so disgruntled if they had just come to us first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted August 3, 2010 Share Posted August 3, 2010 Would they have been so disgruntled if they had just come to us first? I have my share of customers bringing their trucks to me that swear up and down about the cost for the repairs. But yet, these same customers keep coming back for more. Go figure. I wonder why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 6, 2010 Author Share Posted August 6, 2010 There are a few key things that far too many dealership techs... especially "long term" dealership techs are overlooking.... Let's take a brief look at Joe Customer.... These guys always want to know the bottom line first... And, like idiots we usually tell them straight up expecting we can tell them what we will give them for the money. Except Joe is already steaming at the figure we quoted and he is going to hear precious little else we tell him... Something you have to realize about Joe... He don't know nutthin' about mechanicin' 'cept it's a lot of money and why do you guys get a hunnert bucks an hour. All he knows is that his truck is broken and the guy down the street only charges $60... So now, it's time for one of my famous (or is that infamous) digressions. About 25 or so years ago, we bought a love seat. Paid way too much for it... about $1400 back then.. and the Brick Warehouse had the same one just about for $400. About 5 years ago, we gave the love seat to some friends because we plain got tired of looking at it... Looked like the day we got it even though we've always had dogs and cats and we've never made a big deal about them and the furniture. Anyway... the frame on the spendy love seat was hardwood and the covering was very high quality. The frame on the Brick Warehouse "bargain" was S-P-F (that's spruce, pine or fir to the uninitiated) and the cheap covering had to last only as long as the frame which would barely last until the warranty expired. And so it is with Joe Customer... He doesn't see better training, superior tools and the foresight we put into addressing some of the complex problems on these engines.... He thinks the cheap couch is just as good as the spendy couch because they appear to be the same.... He wants his truck fixed and you want that much and the other guy wants this much. Both are mechanics - both have tools - what could be simpler? (I think we both knnow the answer to that). If the other guy has trouble fixing it then you would have probably had trouble fixing it, too... Step one... educate your customers.. do it before you piss in their cornflakes (or do it while you are pissing in their cornflakes, I guess). Informed customers are good customers. It's called SELLING a repair... so SELL it... make the customer see that buying the spendy couch has benefits... That's the tip of the iceberg.... more later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Meanwrench Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I will start by saying I have a great deal of respect for you guys repairing this shit flat rate. My fleet shop takes care of all repairs in house unless the vehicle is under warranty. We have IDS,VMM and all pertinent tools required to repair the 6.0 and 7.3. We have had bad luck with a local Ford dealer as far as quality of work goes. I actually had to send customer pay work to them for injectors and the damn thing comes back with no nuts on the left motor mount and a nice hole/crack in the bellhousing of the trans. I am either driving or towing my warranty work 40 miles away to have it done right. Numerous conversations with the DP who is also the service manager have ended with him telling me to fuck off. We are streched thin in upstate NY as far as Ford dealers go and those that have a good tech have them stacked like cord wood. Come lately, unless it is a major engine repair, we are repairing it in house and absorbing the cost. It is cheaper to eat the cost of parts/labor than be without the ambulance 3 to 4 weeks. Just wanted you all to see it from the fleet standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 I will start by saying I have a great deal of respect for you guys repairing this shit flat rate. I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. My fleet shop takes care of all repairs in house unless the vehicle is under warranty. We have IDS,VMM and all pertinent tools required to repair the 6.0 and 7.3. We have had bad luck with a local Ford dealer as far as quality of work goes. I have heard this comment repeatedly. I actually had to send customer pay work to them for injectors and the damn thing comes back with no nuts on the left motor mount and a nice hole/crack in the bellhousing of the trans. I have heard different versions of this story MANY times. I am either driving or towing my warranty work 40 miles away to have it done right. I have also heard this story many times. Numerous conversations with the DP who is also the service manager have ended with him telling me to fuck off. I have also heard this story many times, less the FO comment. We are stretched thin in upstate NY as far as Ford dealers go and those that have a good tech have them stacked like cord wood. I have also heard this story many times. Come lately, unless it is a major engine repair, we are repairing it in house and absorbing the cost. I have also heard this story many times. It is cheaper to eat the cost of parts/labor than be without the ambulance 3 to 4 weeks. There are many 6.0 E-van fleets who have told me this for years. Just wanted you all to see it from the fleet standpoint. Eric, you are not alone and I'm sure you are aware of this. Your company is nationwide and I am sure you speak with other fleet locations on a regular basis. I have done training for numerous 6.0 fleets and these comments come repeatedly from Econoline fleet customers, whether ambulance, regional transit, or school bus. I can offer little more besides listening to them and offering kind words of support. I hear these same stories over and over, whether it's from the NW area of the country, SW, SE, Midwest, or north east. The stories are nearly identical with only the names and details changing. It saddens me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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